EPISODE 22 TRANSCRIPT

 

Jenna:  Hello! Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Star Family Wisdom Podcast. I'm Jenna Layden, founder of Star Family Wisdom and a former global Vice President for Whole Foods Market.  Thanks so much for joining us today. 

 

Sinéad:  And I’m Sinéad Whelehan, former educator, social activist, and co-host of the Star Family Wisdom Podcast. Star Family Wisdom is a paradigm shifting podcast, community and online school for your spiritual and cosmic evolution.  

 

Jenna:  And although we only met last year, the journey and experiences that led Sinead and I here were very similar - five years ago, we each had experiences that changed our lives forever.  And after lots of research and exploration and healing, we know that our reality is so much more expansive and beautiful than we used to believe.

Last year, we quickly became friends and started having long conversations about our experiences, the expansion of consciousness and the reality of extraterrestrials. And we realized that we wanted to share these conversations with you. 

 

Sinéad:  Yes, because we feel that this is a pivotal time in human evolution.  And we know that we're not alone on this planet. And we feel that it's time for the world to know that.  So on this podcast, we share conversations between guests and ourselves that provide ideas and information to inspire you and support you on this wild journey of being human.  And we explore untold human origin stories, also supernatural experiences, and lost knowledge from the stars - and spiritual wisdom that empowers you to transform your life for the better.

 

Jenna:  Being experiencers of supernatural phenomenon and ET contact, it's important to us that we have open, mature and fun conversations about what is possible and how we're evolving as humans.

 

Sinéad:  Yes. And we consider evolution to include all things. Woo, magic, mindset, science, spirituality, health, and wellness, and definitely extraterrestrial. So through these conversations, we want to explore how all of these topics, seemingly separate, actually connect to inform the evolution of our human experience.

 

Jenna:  So while things will get a little far out here at Star Family Wisdom, we'll still ground you in the science research and information that we use to expand our minds and open to the incredible nature of our reality.  And if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like, subscribe, and share with your friends. You can find us on your favorite podcast app as well, and leave a review or a comment and let us know what's resonating.  It's been so fun connecting with you and hearing all of your feedback so far. Thanks for being here with us.

Sinéad:  Yes. So let's connect and together, we will discover and remember our place in the galaxy as the cosmic beings we truly are.  And in this episode today, we meet the wonderful Courtney Marchesani, who is truly a forward thinker in our field in many ways. She is somebody who knows a great deal about plant medicine and plant science, mind, and body wellness. She is an author. She wrote an amazing book called Four Gifts of the Highly Sensitive. She designed a sensitivity test that - you can see how your sensitivity arrives in your being, in your life, and how you can make use of it to empower yourself.  But she'd also had ET experiences and she's delving into the world of consciousness, exploration and research as well. So she had so much to offer us today.

It was a really wonderful conversation. 

 

Jenna:  Oh my gosh, we could've just kept going and going and going. And I think for any people who have felt sensitive or have maybe felt like they have intuitive gifts or “clair”, you know, gifts kind of coming through, she does a really excellent job of just helping to put language to that and helping us understand from a scientific standpoint, how this is possible and through her decades of research now why this is happening and how this is normal and natural, right?  This is part of our human experience. It is something we're meant to access as humans to help us on our journey.  And I love how she's able to share through her own experiences and all of the research that then has happened after those experiences to put us in a position now to have this sort of conversation in a different way and, um, and to bring the right language to it.

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. I mean, that's something we talk about as a thread throughout the interview was the value of language. And especially at this pivotal time in our evolution, where up until now, we haven't really had a lot of language to be able to understand it, but also building language to understand it has been discouraged. So now that all these things that we talk about on this podcast are rising to the surface in a much more prominent, in a more obvious way on the mainstream level and not just as a kind of side alternative, you know, community, um, it is really interesting to see how language is very much a part of that. And I love that Courtney is so articulate and so learned, and so, you know, well-studied, that she’s able to bring a really rich vocabulary and really clear descriptions to what she's helping to guide us through.  Right? ‘Cause she's talking about so many different things - sensitivity as something that is a power and something that we can use to empower ourselves rather than seeing sensitivity as you know, all the ways we're typically used to seeing it.  Oh, you're, over-sensitive, you're not in control of your emotions. You know, you are, there's something wrong with you. You're unbalanced.  And she completely flips that on its head. And that was the first phase of her career, right? That's where she started within the psychology and a little bit of the study of the paranormal, but not very deeply.  It was mostly questions around her own experience and then getting into sensitivity study and building a career on that.  But then she goes into a whole bunch of other things afterwards. It's really amazing. The journey she's been on - well, in her work - helps people who have been having those sorts of experiences, learn how to, learn how to work with it, right.  How to work with this, the sensitivity and those quote unquote gifts. 

 

Jenna:  And we call them gifts, but they're just there, they're part of our consciousness and how our consciousness is able to, to work.  And she helps us understand how to integrate that into our lives in a way that we've never been taught or that we haven't talked about in our culture, right. That, that these experiences can absolutely be a part of our, our every day life and our sensitivity doesn't have to feel so overwhelming.  Sometimes we can learn again how to work with it, how to not shut it down, because that's not the answer as we talk about in the interview. But, but again, to just integrate it and, and understand what you're perceiving, what you're feeling and what, whether that's coming from past trauma or whether that's coming from the world around you, right.  Are you picking up on collective energy, or are you having some sort of trigger or activation that's allowing something to come up for healing? So we talked about all of that, which is so valuable, I think for everyone right now. 

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. For everyone. Yeah.  Very much so - like, just talking about, we had that conversation with her at one point about choice, right? How there’s a series of crossroads that we come up against in life, will come towards in life, and that we always have a choice, but where we go when we reach that point, right, there's always free will involved at the same time.  You know, there's all these theories - because Courtney clearly believes that there are past lives, that we have all had multiple lives, that we're on an internal journey of exploration. Like many of our guests do, if not all of them. And, uh, you know, she talks about how we get many opportunities within this one life to have choices to make that are for the betterment of ourselves, right?  It's not only in other lives. We get to revisit that again and again, in this life, because the universe is saying, hi, I'm here to support you.  Like, let me help you, let me support you or be a guide. You're trying to tell us that. So again, and again, if we turn away from the opportunity that's been given to us, it will still come back.

 

Jenna:  And I love it. Like that's a very hopeful message, especially now I think with, you know, the enormous, energetic and situational challenges that are happening around me around the world.  People are feeling very stressed and very overwhelmed by life in general, not to mention those situations as well. So seeing, having somebody like Courtney talk about how our most sensitive points can be our most powerful points and that we always have choice, we can always choose to evolve and choose to grow and choose to become more powerful.  It's such an important message right now. 

 

Jenna:  Yeah. And how those choices, points, those forks in the road I guess - our spirit and the universe are presenting us opportunities to come into more of our wholeness, right.  To, to accept more of our soul energy into our being here in this life experience and to, to access more of ourselves to access more of our gifts. And, and that those forks in the road give us that opportunity to, for lack of a better term level up in that way, right.  To receive more of our energy and more of who we really are and to pursue maybe what someone might call destiny versus staying put right, or taking a different fork in the road.  And, and neither is the wrong choice, right? Because like you said, well, life will continue to present us opportunity after opportunity to step into more of our wholeness.  And we can do that over the course of lifetimes. We can do a lot of that in this lifetime. And I love how she talks about some of her own fork in the road moments as being scary, profound, challenging, right?  Because that level up process when we're receiving more of our energy and healing, you know, parts of our past is hard. Like that's not always an easy thing to go through. And, and because of the way our reality works, it's almost like you have to take these leaps of faith and trust in the synchronicities that - she talks about that, right - that synchronicities are like this guidepost. And you talk about how they're like breadcrumbs, right. Leading us towards a particular version of our life that we can, you know, connect with if we want to. And yeah. So it's so interesting to think about how the universe life spirit is always presenting us with these, these moments, these opportunities, these synchronicities, these signs. But sometimes, we sometimes, we back up, or sometimes we, sometimes it seems too magical. Right. And, and it requires a leap of faith and we don't have physical proof right then and there that that's the right path and that's hard. Then she talks about how that is so challenging when you're in that process. And things are unraveling too, when you make certain choices, because that's also what happens.

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. I really love that. She talks about that. I mean, she kind of touches on it in a variety of different ways. So one of the ways, one of the things I appreciated that she was talking about the unseen information and unseen, uh, you know, guidance and opportunity that's always around us. You were just talking about the need for proof. You know, people still really have a hard time with these topics that we talk about because they're too woo woo. That's our favorite word. 

 

Jenna:  I did. I did for a long time. 

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. Well, I mean, all of us, all of us, for sure, because that's how we're conditioned, that's how we're taught.  You know, that kind of stuff is completely discouraged, we’re not even supposed to investigate it. You can't even be curious about it.  Right. So I love that she talks about the fact that even though it's not quote unquote provable within the parameters of knowledge and study and research we have now - because of course there’s always further we can go - um, but she says that it's still there all the same and there's tons of evidence to support that and she's proving it. I mean, she has books about it, data to give, she does talks about it. She - she submitted an amazing paper to the Bigelow, uh, research, uh, Consciousness Research Institute which is funded by the billionaire Robert Bigelow, who's also involved in funding research on UFO's and ETs.  She's very interesting. She's really got her fingers in a whole bunch of different pots because she understands the interconnectedness of all of it.  Right. And how all of it is fundamentally connected to consciousness and that, you know, these are not separate things. So we bring that up at the beginning of the interview and she appreciates that because it's true.  You know, we're so used to seeing all these things as totally separate aspects, or subject matter or to approach, right.

But really it's all connected. And all of these things come into our lives in whatever form for each individual person to help us to try to poke holes in our current existence so that we can see that there's a little more outside of that and push ourselves a little further into that possibility, you know, the possibility of our potential, really. 

 

Jenna: Yeah. I love, I love too how she talks about - on the synchronicity topic - that by following those nudges from the universe, those those moments right, where you're getting that guidance, but it's not like a super physical, you know, thing that has a lot of, um, I guess, validation to it, right, for you.  But by following those signs and synchronicities, she's never been led astray. And that she has always seemed to end up at the right place with the right people and the right situations and, and, and how important, to find the right teachers and guides along the way has been, right. So that she doesn't feel alone in that. But, but that, by following that, you know, she's, she's experienced real miracles and she's experienced the power of healing.  And, and it is like, we have this, this beautiful opportunity to understand consciousness on this other level so that we can feel safe in taking those risks or following those signs and, and, and, and know what's possible on the other side.  And, and I think that's so beautiful that she shares so much of her own personal experience around that. 

 

Sinéad:  Me too, me too.  I really appreciate that she has the lived experience. I mean, nobody that we've had on has been a pure academic, right?  Every single person we've had on this show brings their personal lived experience of what they're talking about. And I really feel like that makes it extra special because, you know, again, using the Linda Backman, um, example of the shrimp - I think I'm going to keep using this, I just love it. It's so easy to use - where she asked somebody, you know, have you ever tried shrimp? And they say, no, but someone explained it to me.  And it's just not the same thing. You can't possibly know what shrimp is just in your head. You have to actually taste it, digest it and have your body know what it is.  So she talks about that, Courtney - that is important to investigate the unseen, investigate the unknown and, you know, investigate our sensitivity and just develop more awareness, more keen awareness with a grounded perspective, you know, using discernment, using research. So I love that she's very expanded in her understanding of how our consciousness works and what our potential is. And <indistinct> she really grounds it in her dedication and commitment to the research that she's doing.  Yeah. It's something else. She is someone we have to have back. She's got so much to offer. 

 

Jenna:  Well, and it was so fun and having this conversation and being able to connect the dots on our personal experiences that we've had, right.  And even in the interview, we had some telepathy happening right. In this consciousness connection that was, that was forming. And, and even being able to share about those experiences, the more of us that do that.  And the more of us that can say, oh yeah, I've experienced that. And, oh, I've experienced the same result too, after following a sign or a synchronicity, or, or I also witnessed something in a vision that was scary, but it helped me prepare. And it helped me support other people. And all of us having that sort of shared experience and talking about it is so important because it helps us trust in those experiences.  Right? 

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. I mean, this is really how we're building this field of knowledge. Isn't it, as by sharing these conversations with each other, that's what researchers rely on.  That's what the scientists who are studying quantum stuff, physics, you know, that, that's what they're relying on as well. They're relying on the common person.  And there are unexplainable experiences of these phenomena that are now more, a little easier, or a lot easier to, for us to study.  And for us to understand that they connect with all these other fields we didn't think they connected to before. So once again, I am grateful to be alive at this time. There's so much incredible information and ability to share it right, through the internet, through your computers, even though technology is a pain in the butt, as you and I have talked about a few times, it also provides us with, you know, the ability to connect.  So Courtney is way off in a wooded area in Pennsylvania. She normally lives in Alaska. You're in the US, I'm in Canada, our listeners are everywhere,  but here we are, able to connect right now, with this conversation. And I think that's wonderful.

 

Jenna:  I know, I think it's so incredible that we are having this sort of global connection now, and that we're hearing from so many people about their experiences in the comments and you know, how they've gone through their own awakening. And because today we talk about extra sensory and sensitivity type of experiences, leave a comment for us and let us know what experiences you've had. Again, we want to share more collectively about what's happening and what's possible and what we are all experiencing. And by sharing that together, it helps us not be alone in it. Right. And someone might see your comment and, and have a connection and say, that's me. I've been there. I've, I've had that too.  So let's all share. Let's all, you know, bring this conversation together in a bigger way. So, so please leave a comment if you're watching on YouTube, like, and subscribe, don't forget to do that. And if you are watching or listening on the podcast, apps, leave our review and let us know again, what your experiences are. It's been so fun to connect with all of you. 

 

Sinéad:  Yes. We really love to hear from you. And thank you so much for being with us, everyone listening, for supporting us.  We really hope that we're supporting you as well. And we look forward to seeing you next time. So how about if we get right into the conversation with Courtney, are you ready?

 

Jenna:  Let's do it. And we'll see you on the other side! 

 

Sinéad:  We're very pleased today to have with us, the wonderful, very intelligent Courtney Marchesani, whom I first met about two and a half years ago. Courtney has been doing in-depth work on a wide variety of things, sensitivity, plant medicine, all kinds of things related to, that relate to consciousness and human development. And so she's bringing a very well-rounded background and also personal life experience to the conversation today. So Courtney, we've been really, really looking forward to this. You have so much that you bring to the table, so hello, welcome. We're so glad you're here. And how are you doing today?

 

Courtney:  Hi, hi. To both of you. I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited about our conversation. I feel just exuberant.  So I'm going to try to tamp down my, you know, happy, but I’m very happy that we're all together. You know, I love the idea of the star family being together. 

 

Jenna:  Me too.  And that really feels like what we're doing here. It's just so good to meet you. It's like every time we meet new friends like this, it really is feeling like a reunion in a lot of ways.  And, and that we're meant to come together and have these conversations.   And Sinéad’s introduced me to your work. And I'm so passionate about mind, body science and what we can learn about, you know, our healing ability through that, you know, research.  And I'm just thrilled to learn from you today and hear about your journey. 

 

Sinéad:  Yes, yeah. Journey. We want to take it to the beginning of your journey because you've had quite a long path of exploration, and seeking and learning and growing, and then contributing what you've learned through writing, through speaking, through communicating, you know, all this wonderful knowledge that you've gathered.

So you have a lot to offer and you are offering this from a variety of topics that seem to be separate, but actually all connect.  So we want to bring it back to the root of how this started for you. How did you end up discovering this path? What brought you to this path of healing of transformation or personal growth? 

 

Courtney:  Well, I love, first of all, I just want to validate that you see that it's connected.  I love that because so many people look at the different aspects of my work and don't see that it's connected.  They kind of look at it and go, oh, well, this is a certain period of her life, or she was interested at this time, but it's actually interwoven.  So thanks for recognizing that and acknowledging it because it does seem to be an underpinning. Um, there are underpinnings of my work. It started for me - I think the most profound thing that stood out to me was, in my mid twenties I had a couple of, um, just, there's no other way to describe it except psychic, pre-cognitive experiences. And at that stage in my life, I really didn't see myself as much different from anybody else. I thought that I was, you know, a hard worker and had specific, uh, skill sets, I was in mental health, I went into psychology from college. Um, but during college I actually had a couple of profound psychic experiences.  And when those stood out to me, they kind of led me on a unique research path of understanding psychic phenomenon and why it happens.

That was the first experience. 

 

Sinéad:  Okay. So would you like to tell us a little bit about one of those experiences, why it was important to you and how it impacted on you?

 

Courtney:  The first experience that was really important that made me stop. It made me pause and observe something that was, that had already happened.  I mean, in my dream - it was a dream - I was, um, three years into college and my psychology degree, I was married and I also had a child.  So I was doing a lot in my life. At that time, I was working two jobs. I mean, I was incredibly busy.  So the fact that this dream stood out to me, the way it did is important. ‘Cause I was obviously doing so many different things.  It's easy to lose track of day to day, you know, just occurrences. So the dream that I had was about an acquaintance. It's not somebody that I knew or was close to, but he was an acquaintance of my husband at the time.  And in the dream, he drove through a stop sign, got pulled over by the police. And I saw it in the trunk of his car, all kinds of paraphernalia, drugs, guns.  I mean, it was like a whole host of, uh, illegality, you know, to a length and depth of which I did not understand that this guy was involved in. Then the second part of the dream after I saw what was in the trunk, was he was in front of a judge.  He had his hands behind his back as if he was handcuffed. And he was like, being arraigned or sentenced in a court of law.  So in the, after I woke up from the dream, I was, I felt a sense of panic, a sense of alert and a sense of hyper-vigilance that this guy was bad news and we were connected to him. So I woke my husband and I said, you need to stay away from this guy. He's bad news. And I saw this. And he just looked at me and kind of rolled over and went, you're being paranoid, you're being paranoid.  And so I thought, wow, is this really what paranoia is? But there was something about it that stood out to me that was incredibly clear. And the information that I drew from it was very specific and detailed. And it was like seeing a whole double side of, a shadow of, this guy's life that he hid from everybody else in his world.  So flash forward from that dream probably three months, and my husband and I are sitting in our living room watching the 11 o'clock news in Missoula, Montana.  And here he is on the news, the guy, with his hands behind his back in front of the judge.  And I looked at my husband and I was like, obviously he knew because I woke him up and I gave the details and here, here this guy was. And the second part of that dream played out exactly as it did on television, it was almost like a, a mirror of it.

And so that was the first profound experience. And it also led to like multiple levels of me understanding, um, my husband at the time and that - what he was involved in.  And so that intuition was for me, like, is this women's intuition - because I'd always heard about women's intuition, but I never really knew what it was - or was it psychic or was it… so that was the first thing that made me go, what is that, what was that?  Why did I experience that? Why did I experience it with such detail and clarity? And that was the first time.

 

Sinéad: Wow. So, so how - did that relate to, then, the career trajectory that you went down? Was that connected initially? 

 

Courtney:  No.  So I got my degree in psychology. I moved from Missoula, Montana to Washington. I went to work in mental health, um, working with people who had, um, chronic mental illness.  And, um, I did really well in my career. And so they were like, I would almost say they were parallel life tracks that I was living because I continued to experience psychic phenomenon, but I didn't really integrate it into my work. That didn't come until way later, I had a couple other profound psychic experiences that were not in dream states. They kind of started in the dream states where the lucid dreaming would sometimes bring pre-cognitive content that would happen into the daytime.  So later, a couple years later, I ended up getting divorced from my husband. And so I was a single mom and I was working, still working multiple jobs and, you know, making ends meet.  And, um, I always consider this period of time where I came back to myself as not focused so much on a relationship, but more integrating who I really was as a person, as an empath, as an intuitive, right.  The things that I might have either suppressed or diluted about myself when I went through this separation. And, um, you know, the healing that was involved.  It seemed like everything else in the psychic world just went up, by orders of magnitude, because I was meditating. I was, um, being okay with myself and who I was on my own. And in that period of time, it was just a very rich period of time, where I started to really deeply investigate the intuitive aspects of myself.

And that was, um, it was phenomenal because everything just kind of came to light. And I started to see that it wasn't that these things were anomalies outside of myself.  They were part of who I was as a person. And then discover - I mean, I'm thinking of how for the longest time, you know, I was, I am an empath. I am an intuitive, but I didn't have the language. I didn't know what empath, I didn't even know the word empath and I knew the word intuition, but I didn't know the word intuitive or the phrase intuitive.

Right. So for me getting language and getting words for things and getting like not definitions, but explanations for things was just a huge relief for me, because I felt like all these experiences that I'd had, that was actually a way that I could describe it and understand it, it wasn't just sort of swimming around in my being.

 

Sinéad: So did you come to a point where, you know, you started to feel relief somehow or a deepening of knowledge and understanding - did that come with language and vocabulary or did it come with, um, just exploration, and all the things that come along with that?

 

Courtney: It didn't come until much later in my life. I was really swimming in the sea of experiences and trying to find a foothold into what was going on internally and why.  What was going on internally seemed to be reflected into the outside world in such a remarkable way.  So when I was in mental health, I was really good at my job. And so I would notice my moments of mindfulness or that I was being led internally to meditate and stop. Cause I worked at a very, very intense career. And so with my decoupling and coming more into myself, I just started to take care of myself more.  And then I started to ask other people, my peers, right. I was probably one of the youngest people in my clinic.  So I was asking my elders, right, my elder colleagues; are you seeing this pre-cognitive ability? Are you seeing this deep profound sense of sitting with a patient and a knowing what's going on with them, and trying to use language to articulate the experience and bounce that off of others? And they did not necessarily validate those experiences. They thought they were very odd, right. In a professional setting too. They didn't necessarily say yes, I have that happen. Or yes, I've seen that happen with other people. So I was kind of left, um, swimming right through these different realms of reality and asking people in a clinical setting, “Have you ever seen or experienced this before" and by and large, the answer was no. So I was very much on my own for a while.  And then things started to happen that could not be denied where there were witnesses of things. And so down the road, after that experience, where I dreamt of the man who was in the actual courthouse, three years later, I stopped a fire in a building.  And there were witnesses that saw that series and chain of events. And so when that happened, I was actually validated in my outside experience, with other people, that saw what happened, saw that - how I kind of predicted what was happening through my intuition, but I didn't have words for it, and the fire was prevented. That's when, that was like a transformational turning point in my life where I actually said, I'm going to find out what this is and figure out language for it and why this is different. I can't be alone in this experience. And that's when I found Russell Targ’s book Miracles of Mind. And that was a life-changing thing for me, where I actually had language that accurately depicted my personal reality and my experiences with psychic phenomenon.

That was the first. And then it took me, I mean, 20 years later of research and explorations and going down every different rabbit hole to find a full language, that I actually wrote myself in the book that I came out with for Hay House, the Four Gifts of the Highly Sensitive.  I took all that research from all those years and put language to the research so that people would have an essence of what all those experiences are, for people who are basically gifted with sensory awareness, different types.  That's kind of how I conceived it and put it together in one cohesive structure. 

 

Sinéad: That’s wonderful. That's wonderful. We know on a sort of 3D level, um, you know, if you've worked with children, for example, whether you're a parent or teacher or whatever, you have to help children understand themselves by giving them the words and language to be able to express what they think, express what they feel.  So Jenna and I have talked so much about how in this field that still, it’s, it's, you know, this field is not new, but it is new at the same time where it's arising in a different way.  And that the language of it is so incredibly important, the language is so limited. 

 

Courtney: Hold on, hold on one second. Just hold on. That's Jack. Jack, one sec, come here, buddy. Well, I love where you're going with this because I feel like one of the reasons why people go through these experiences, if you look at life course and trajectory, I think some people like myself are in a sense destined to go through that isolation to some degree and experience things and go down every different path so that they can learn so they can learn through their own subjective experience. And so I agree with what you're saying about children. I didn't have that language. So I didn't know. And I was probably very intuitive and also empathic as a child, but there was, there was no identification of it. So it was kind of up to me to discern as things were unfolding, what it was, and also to track it and then become a teacher to be able to teach it. So there was a period of time where I looked at it and it looked at like, kind of, almost like a suffering almost like, why am I having to suffer through this isolation? Why don't people understand this? Whereas now I look at it as, um, almost as like a destiny to learn through that experience, so I could teach it in a way that other people would be able to understand.

 

Jenna: Yes. I love that. I love that you got to that realization, Courtney, that, that you really are destined to be a leader and teacher and support others, you know, as they're on this journey as well, because I think so many people are having experiences that they have not been able to explain or has not been explained to them by our mainstream society and in so many people, including myself, early on, and having some of these extra- sensory, you know, gifts open up, write it off or brush it off because we don't have either the language or the scientific explanation.  And I know you've gone on to study and get a degree in mind/body science, so that you can articulate that scientific foundation, you know, of what is happening in these experiences. So I'd love for you to just give us a brief synopsis or overview of the science behind sensitivity and, and what our audience needs to know about the scientific research that's available to support, um, these experiences. 

 

Courtney: I wish I could say that I was the first person to coin, you know, the word sensitivity, but it's, it's been around for a really long, long time. And in a lot of ways, it was pejorative for me, like for a whole era of time to be sensitive was like death row, like, oh, you're just, you know, you're too sensitive, or that means something else.  Like it <indistinct>. Sometimes they had mental illness, right? Because of the instability of what sensitivity is known for. So the first researcher to ever really bring that out in a scientific way through social science and psychology was Dr.

Elaine Aron and she developed what's called the hyper sensitivity - um, not the hyper, but the highly sensitive person scale. The HSPS. So when I did all my research for my graduate study, I went and evaluated that. I had already read Dr. Elaine Aron's book in my twenties when I was in college. But I, the, the crazy thing is I never looked at myself.  And when - I’m one of these people, I never, I never identified, self-identified, with my identity as a sensitive person.  So that's the really interesting thing is like, I kind of had to go back in time. And then once I got into my graduate work and connected everything to sensitivity, it made all the sense in the world to me that this is kind of the thread that was weaving through my whole life.

Have you guys ever read, um, Paulo Coelho, his book? Um, it's one of his first books. The name of it is escaping me - oh, the Alchemist.  Have you ever read the Alchemist? Okay. So the Alchemist, without ruining it for anybody who hasn't read it, is kind of about this person's life quest and he's on a seeking mission to find the, his treasure and his destiny. And, um, the, the, the fun thing about it is he had it all along. He finds it, you know, at the end that he had it all along.  So that was for me, kind of how sensitivity came to me and my graduate work. I had done a bunch of different healing work. I had worked on integrative medicine, but when I came to the graduate work, I really drilled down into sensitivity how to identify it, how it affects our mental and emotional health, how it affects our spiritual health, and also how it can lead us to our own wellness, our own healing, and also spiritually, how it can be a pathway into the world of the unseen, which is very rare, where we hear people talk about the unseen reality. And sensitivity seems to be a guidepost for people who have that sensitivity. So going back to Dr. Elaine Aron, she developed the test, the first test, that was, that was studied by four and five factor analysis and proven to show validity and reliability. And so what I did was kind of extrapolate out of her test and do a different unique test that actually zeroes in on what could be called hypersensitivity. And from that level, extrapolate out the different types of abilities that develop from hyper-sensitivity and sensitivity, which are empathy, intuition, visionary experiences, and expression, which is essentially like a certain type of creative, uh, adaptability.

 

Jenna: Hmm. Would you liken that to like a channeling state like that, like a creative kind of flow state? 

 

Courtney: Yes. Well, it depends. Right. So if it's a person who is highly sensitive, who has that type of a skillset or gift for creativity, it very much feels like channeling to them where, when they're in the flow or in a flow state, they're perceiving what they perceive in their environment could be beauty, harmony, the interconnectedness of nature, and they channel it through them.

But it's not just channeling of words. Like, we typically think of like a medium or a channel in that way, who’s channeling spiritual information.  That type, that specific type of gift. The expressive is channeling, um, in a way, like all the environmental beauty that they perceive, which could be explanation. Yeah. Which could be like almost like a sublime undercurrent. And then they bring that through an expressive form, which could be writing, it could be filmmaking, it could be dancing. It could be through doing, you know, pottery. And so it's not a typical sense where you think of it as, like, a writer who's channeling content through words. It can be. Uh, but yeah, I think, I think channeling is fairly accurate for that. 

 

Sinéad:  I’m wondering too. I mean, I want to ask you, kind of touching back on what you were referencing earlier about how sensitivity has typically been seen in a very kind of stereotypical way, you know, like you’re over-sensitive, you're too sensitive. You're not in control of your emotions. You’re unbalanced, or unstable, or - you know, all these phrases that go along with that old outdated description of what sensitivity is.  Yet, there is something that a lot of research touches on, um, related to the typical way we see sensitivity, uh, with regard to trauma. And so, you know, trauma can make us extremely sensitive because well, you know, <indistinct> uh, maybe our emotions or our sensitivities are closer to the surface, which gives us access to those unseen things.  But it seems like trauma is kind of a conduit for some people in some ways, you know, that it kind of breaks us open in a way to allow for other things to come in or for other experiences to happen.  So I'm curious what you'd say about trauma as, you know, having a role in sensitivity and how - I guess I'm asking particularly because trauma is often such a disempowering experience for people, but here at Star Family Wisdom, we really believe that, you know, these things can be one way or the other, and that is all about empowering ourselves. And using even difficult, really difficult experiences sometimes, to make themselves stronger. So sensitivity appears to be a weakness. You talk about it as a power and strength and something we can use to become even better or better ourselves. How do you think trauma is involved in that? 

 

Courtney:  I think that it's, for some individuals, intricately connected and intricately linked.  When Dr. Elaine Aron went and did the first study around sensitivity, what she was really trying to do was tease out things like introversion and neurosis and being neurotic, because sensitivity was really like misconstrued to be neurosis.  That was what she was looking at, is neurosis, as the same thing. And when she developed the Highly Sensitive Persons Scale, she found out it's not the same thing. They’re different in their distinct ways, and they overlap in unique ways.

What she also found out in her original sample size was that there were people who had sensitivity just naturally. And then there were these other individuals who she called, um, she said that they had troubling childhoods.  Okay. That was the specific terminology she used in that original study - that they had troubling childhoods, and they also had sensitivity, but it seemed to, uh, present itself through those experiences. So we know a lot more since then. That was 1997 when she did the original study. And we know a lot more about PTSD and how PTSD presents itself and the four classic ways that PTSD typically appears. And so sensitivity is intricately linked with PTSD. We know that because when people are triggered by something in their environment that reminds them of a past experience, they become more sensitive and you can't really tease out what is the sensitivity, the alarm system and the alarm bell, or is it the trigger?

It doesn't matter. It's there. And so what that does is it gives sensitivity a bad name, in the essence that people who experienced PTSD are highly sensitive to those types of past experiences. But what you're talking about, and what I write about in detail in the book is the benefits, right? How it helps us, how it warns us, how it heals us, how it gives us information, how it puts us out into that edge, or that boundary between what is real and what we perceive in our perception. And I think that there are definitely people who are born with sensitivity, who have not experienced PTSD. That's clear, it's been established, it's a biological, uh, strategy, it's evolutionarily based, but it all does seem to trend even intergenerational, intergenerationally, back to threat, being able to perceive threats, survival mechanisms.

And so it is a biological thing that we inherit, but it also seems to expand under trauma or under threat or under stress. And I look at it as a positive thing, because all the research that I've studied is that when you embrace it and recognize it and identify it, it does seem to give us information about our environment that other people do not necessarily perceive. But we do, because we have that, that it seems hidden, but it's not. We're like, we're bellwethers for different types of oncoming threats, but it's not always threat. You know, the threat is really kind of how it's established through trauma, but when you work with it and you learn to develop it, it becomes, it can become what I call a great gift.

 

Jenna:  That’s how I conceive of it, Courtney. Do you help people with that cultivation of the gifts, that come with sensitivity and how to, how to manage, you know, their sensitivity?

 

Courtney:  Yes. So I, um, like I said, I came, I come from a background in mental health. I was a mental health counselor.

And one of the things that I saw working with people who were going through acute trauma and, and kind of getting in that cycle of mental health and long-term, right, and chronic mental health.

One of the things that I saw as a provider was that if you were to establish care, right, during that acute phase, you could essentially stabilize a lot of other long-term problems related to trauma.  So I've evolved out of mental health now, and I'm in coaching because I think in the coaching model, especially with people who are experienced in mental health, you have way more freedom.  You have way more freedom to work on different types of holistic medicine that can help. So my coaching, uh, methods are based out of basically integrative medicine now to help people understand when they're under stress, high stress, when they're under high stress. And they're not necessarily able to identify why, how to ground themselves through practices and then to embrace the gifts and use the gifts in their life for like, peak performance.

So yes, I do it and I help and I teach, but it's all woven into coaching and coaching strategy. That's how I have worked it into my profession and my professional life. And inevitably people embrace their gifts and they use them. But usually typically at first, they're not sure. And they might even be dubious at first that they have an ability or a talent. And, um, I kind of have to convince them to some level because they don't really - they negate it. It's an interesting, unique, singular phenomenon within people. ‘Cause they don't really want to say “I'm gifted”, because that hasn't loaded. It's a loaded, it's a loaded term. So they don't want to be gifted in a way that they are.  But everyone can be gifted.  

 

Jenna: Right. Everyone is gifted, right. Everyone is kind of on a spectrum there. And like you said, we can cultivate more of that and learn how to work with it.  And it's almost as though nature wants us to activate and use these abilities - to your point, to, to help us, you know, to help us move through life, to help us avoid danger, to, to be like that support, that invisible support system almost.  Is that kind of how you embody that, and like, felt about that on your journey? 

 

Courtney:  It took me a long time to come to that. You articulated it in a very beautiful way. I was a mess trying to understand it really. I think the reason why is because I grew up in a very blue collar, uh, family, where we were just really kind of living on the edge, but we were also very close to nature.  Um, nature was part of everything.  You know, our family, um, hunted and lived with the cycles and the seasons and, and, um, it was just, it was routinized in our life to be connected with nature. I mean, I, our family were sustainable farmers, right. And so we weren't in any way special. And so I had to grapple with the notion of why these experiences are happening to me specifically. And so I would go and talk to my family, my mom and my dad. And when I would talk with my mom, um, you know, she would always just say, no, we've never had any of these experiences in our family. We're just average bears. That was her thing all the time. We're just average bears. But I did come to an, uh, uh, uh, an experience with my dad where we basically had a telepathic experience together, he and I, when I came home one time to visit. And we followed that and found once again, like it's kind of like the experience where I was able to prevent the fire. He and I prevented another disaster together. And when that happened, I sat him down and I said, you know, what is this?  I want to know. I've been trying to understand it. And he just said, well, I have it. And sometimes I know when people are at the shop and I know I need to go to the shop and then they're there.  And so the way he described it to me was very like common man kind of ability. There's nothing super special about it.  And then he also had the caveat, don't talk to your mom about it because she doesn't understand. She's not going to validate you.  Like, don't try to look for answers there because it will shut you down. So I didn't always feel that belonging, but then once my dad and I had that experience together, I understood it was my dad and was genetic and it came through his family line. And so, um, it, it was validating in a sense, but I think that that's what could be missing in our culture nowadays is that sense of belonging, that undercurrent that says, oh, this is part of my, um, part of my inheritance, because it’s human, and it is human nature.  So we all have this as a cultural inheritance. Yes. Everybody, it's intuition. It's an instinct. 

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. And you know, we talk about lineage, we talk about ancestry.  We talk about, you know, tradition and heritage and stuff, but this is the kind of lineage we don't talk about. And yet it's something that's remarkably common. Right. But we don't, we don't talk about it. And it's, you know, we're living in a time right now - um, I feel anyway - where we’re finally able to have a lot of conversations that we might not have been able to have even 10 years ago in a more open public way. There seems to be a big shift going on. And so on that note, I want to open the umbrella a little further and jump, put our toe in the water of consciousness.  This is a very big conversation, but I know it's a huge interest of yours. And what I want to touch on is what you were talking about a few minutes ago, regarding sensitivity and how important sensitivity is for our strength and our survival and our, you know, awareness of self protection, and how to kind of make it through life.  We need our sensitivity as part of our barometer and as an accomplice to get us through life, right. And empower us in that way.  So again, that is the flip side of how we normally view sensitivity. And so I want to talk about ego for a minute because we see ego typically - you know, this is a blanket statement - it's bad, it means they're stuck up, it means this, it means that, but really ego is a natural part of being human. It serves a purpose, just like anything else - it’s there to make sure that we are protecting ourselves - sometimes too vehemently, but it's there right, to protect it, to help us protect ourselves. So the eco is something that is talked about a great deal in the study of consciousness.  And because you are also a healer, you've been studying psychology, you know, this is - consciousness touches on every aspect of our reality and our environment and the, the aspects of other people's and other creatures reality. So can you talk a bit about how your work particularly with, um, illuminating things that might seem weak as actually being strengths and powers that we can use in our human experience? How does that take you further into the realm of consciousness as you've been going along this path for many years, branching out further and further into the sort of cosmic nature of everything you've been working on.  Right. So can you talk a little bit about how that started to blossom on your path and how your previous work led you in that direction, specifically sensitivity?

 

Courtney:  It has been an evolution because when I was in college for the psych degree, when some of these, uh, what would be called like paranormal experiences were happening, what I was learning about was mainly, um, the mind and the brain and psychopharmacology and how to treat different types of mental illnesses, right. And the DSM-4 at the time, and how classification of mental illness, um, was treated with by providers, right? So it was a very linear, materialistic viewpoint of psychology. The parallel track of what I was experiencing was not talked about and what I learned in my, in my studies. And so it was all things that came to me organically through study this other field, like Russell Targ and Jane Cottrell, who was a healer. And those things that organically happened were also very synchronistic. That's another way that I like to talk about consciousness and how my mind was opened to a whole range of things that were not quantified by typical psychology. So when I went to school, it was the decade of brain research. So that's really what I knew. And it was almost, I mean, a very atheistic sense of understanding psychology through science, but they were just starting to connect the mind and body. That was like the new thing that was emerging, right. And field study was so like, everybody was like, Ooh, mind/body is the next thing. Right? So now we know that it's all interconnected and the mind is the body. And it's been an evolution for me following what we now know and has hit critical mass, that consciousness, um, interlinks all of it.  And that our body feels, and our body has awareness and there's somatic awareness and there's, there's interoceptive awareness and there's vertical perception. So I really went with the evolution of what was coming and just staying on top of things. But I also had a deeply personal interest in consciousness because it seemed to be the one thing that kind of linked all of those anomalous perceptions for me was consciousness. It was the, it was the root and the nature of it, and awareness. Um, so with that being said, I focus on very specific types of consciousness research. Where does consciousness stem from? Does it come from biochemical processes in the brain? Like we've been taught since, you know, day car, or is it outside like grant talks about, you know, where the mind is really the root of perception. And we don't know where that is and it could be non-local. And so I think that they are going to figure that out, but I also think that there are mysteries within consciousness that we're not meant to find out. And I think that leaves the door open for us each personally, to understand what consciousness means to us and to continue to delve into the mystery of the human experience. So I think that consciousness is everything because it's really our awareness. Why are we alive? Why are, why are here? And when you start asking those questions, it just, you know, it brings you synchronistically to things that are important for you. Now that's a Western notion when you start to look at Eastern ways of, you know, looking at the cosmos, it's a very different perspective. And we don't, they don't have that sense of like individuation a personal destiny like we do in the west. Um, but I'm a westerner. So I do adhere to more Western thought with regard to consciousness studies. 

 

Jenna:  Well, here's a quick note on consciousness studies during this interview, every single time as you've been talking Courtney, I have arrived at a question in my head for you that I'm going to ask next, you immediately answer it.

 

Courtney: Well, that's one of the things that you find. I think when you get around other people who are synergistic, you’re connecting synergistically and you are paying attention and you are arriving at things. There does seem to be a synergistic, uh, cohesion amongst other people, especially intuitive. So I have a funny story about that. I was working at Vera Whole Health Care in corporate wellness for a while doing coaching, which was a wonderful experience. And, um, at one of the coaches, uh, like getting to know you things, that they have as like a chat, a sip and chat or whatever, once a month, where all the coaches come together and you're - this one experience, we were supposed to bring an object, a special object to the the sip and chat. So I brought a picture of my wedding day and I have orchids red orchids in my hair, and I'm all happy. And I'm like arriving right on the steps, getting ready to put my wedding dress on. And the other two women who arrived at the coach conversation, both brought orchids.  One woman brought an actual orchid. And the other woman had, I think, a picture of an orchid. And I had a picture of me with orchids ringing around my head. So we - I have said, I’ve explored every kind of healing modality. And so one of them that I did explore for a while, and I continue to learn about is called psychodrama. Psychodrama is an expressive form of art therapy, where you basically concretize life on a stage. And you bring in these individuals who take different parts and you act those out, right. But it's psychological and it's therapeutic. So it is a form of therapy. And one of my trainers used to say, this is called tele - T E L E.  Tele appears, right, when people get together in any kind of space and that you have these synchronistic things where there's like a synergy, where you're on the same wavelength, or you're thinking the same thought, or somebody else says something that you're thinking. So tele, you know, it's a real phenomenon. So we're experiencing it here, which is kind of fun. ‘Cause that's a real time evidence of tele. 

 

Sinéad: Yeah. More holistic experience of communication with other people who are like this. Right. And you feel it. I mean, I feel it in my field. I feel it in my body, I feel my brain… Like I actually feel it. I feel all of these aspects of myself operating on a fuller level, when I'm able to communicate in this way with other people who can communicate like this. And so, you know, so much of what you do is about that. Non-verbal kind of intelligence, right? Non, non-verbal kind of communication that we are all experiencing all the time. And that's part of the value of being sensitive. And I really love that. And I want to highlight that because we're so used to communication being, talking, and listening, right. It's the mouth and the ears - and the brain. And that's pretty much it - but communication is so much more holistic and you really get into that in your research. And I'd love it if you could touch on that a little bit. 

 

Courtney:  Gotcha. Sinéad, that’s such a good segue. I think so much of our communication is nonverbal body language, facial expression, micro facial expression, you know, animal communication, you know, it's real.  And you know, a lot of times empaths have such a deep connection with their animals even more so than humans. Right? And so the thing that I did for the Bigelow Institute of Consciousness Studies - ‘cause I got accepted into that contest - was it forced me to take all those years of study, right, and all those years of research and everything that I had sifted through, and, and developed - and made me actually do a study, my own study because as an empath and intuitive, I, one of the reasons why I came to Grant’s work and you, is because he talks about downloads and downloads are things that I have viscerally felt on a very physical level where information streams in from a source unknown, maybe higher self, maybe divine. However you want to look at the channel that it comes through. And in the Bigelow Institute of Consciousness Studies, I was able to use that opportunity to take several downloads that I had had over the years and articulate them through my own study.  And so that's what I did. I took the sensitivity test that I developed for the book, so people could identify their own gift, and I basically went through that statistically and found the individuals who were so far out on that spectrum. And I basically gave them another questionnaire to talk about things like after life communication, out of body experiences, um, uh, communication with yourself from another timeline, which would be described as a pre-life memory. And so I lined that all up for individuals who were hypersensitive and did seem to be a trend where there was communication happening through all non-verbal means, all non-verbal intelligence.  And so I broke that out into, um, a hypothesis essentially, as to why certain individuals are able to use nonverbal intelligence for communication. And, but I also connected to, with, um, with art and artistic expression and how art can help us understand this type of communication through visual imagery, um, visual imagery that we see outside, but also visual imagery that certain types of individuals seem to be - I called it like, bilingual. They had like a bilingual ability to communicate through symbols, images, signs, messages from people who had passed on, or somehow through their own personality from before life.  So I a hundred percent agree and fall in line with you, that so much of our communication is non-verbal. And I even take that to another psychic level that I haven't necessarily seen been done in the research.  I didn't win the Bigelow Institute of Consciousness Studies, but I continue to pursue that research track…

 

Sinéad: And maybe you could even say who Bigelow is for the people who are listening, because that links to another kind of experience that you have had.

 

Courtney:  Robert Bigelow is the funder of multiple projects. He is an entrepreneur, um, and a founder of - well he's involved right now, or was, with Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, I think that's how he's more recently been relevant in the media and through people in the, um, researchers in the UAP community, who are trying to understand his role, but he's moved on and evolved in a sense.

I mean he had two questions. One was, uh, you know, what are UFO’s, and then the other one was, do we live?  Does our consciousness live? Those were his two burning questions. And he's been trying to fund research to answer them. And I guess maybe he feels in some way that that first question has been resolved to his satisfaction or his liking, whereas the second one wasn’t.  So he basically established this contest for researchers all over the world internationally to apply, uh, to compete, which is writing an essay with the best possible evidence for survival of consciousness.  And so I was accepted into that contest. And then the winners were just announced, I think three months ago, two or three months ago.  So you can find all the winning essays online and read about all their research. Jeffrey Mishlove won, he’s a, um, the top winner.  And he, I haven't read his essay, but he’s well-known in the consciousness community. He has a YouTube channel and he does, um, real thinking aloud? freethinking aloud? New thinking aloud. That's Jeffrey Mishlove.  So he won, and he has a, uh, you know, an essay.  And so do all the other competitors who won.  So you can read all about the latest consciousness research and survival of consciousness through that contest. But I think Robert Bigelow, um, is a major supporter of consciousness research.  He's pretty well known. 

 

Sinéad:  Yes. Yes. And he's got a personal, you know, longstanding fascination with UFO's and ETs, extraterrestrials and UAPs as they're called now - unidentified aerial phenomena. They're no longer supposed to be called UFOs, but regardless of that term, I still do it. 

 

Courtney:  I know it's taboo, but I still do too.  I can't help myself. I'm old. 

 

Sinéad:  Yeah. Definitely decades of saying UFO's, it's going to take longer than a couple months to change how we're on. 

 

Courtney: Well, I try it, I try it. I do UAP, I do UAP, but I'm like, it's like that whole tip of the tongue thing, you know, it just, it doesn't roll like UFO  rolls.  So I'm conflicted. I do. 

 

Sinéad:  And, and UFO's is such a popular search term. Like it almost feels like it's like distracting from, you know, the, the, the bucket of research that exists around UFO’s.  I don't know I'm going to stick with UFO's. 

 

Courtney:  Yeah. For now it's easier for me.

 

Jenna: Sorry Courtney, Courtney. I have a question around collective consciousness and you you've done so much research, you know, in this field and you were describing how, you know, some individuals are able to perceive, perceive future events, perceive, you know, symbols and archetypal energy from the other side, from, you know, uh, maybe ancestors or whomever may have passed on, you know, we've heard a lot of instances of people being able to perceive world events before they happen. And many people perceiving world events, you know, prior to them happening. And so I'm wondering if your research has taken you into, into that arena at all, and what you maybe know about that kind of collective phenomena that happens.

 

Courtney: It’s definitely part of it. It's part of being the bellwethers. Right. So sensitivity definitely seems to warn us, warn us for survival, and that does seem to be consistent.  Um, I had a personal experience. Um, I was heading down to the, uh, conference last month, I guess it's a couple months ago now where it was the archives, um, opening The Archives of the Impossible down in Houston.  And I stopped along the way, um, with a friend and we went and toured this whole area in Arkansas that we've never been to.  And we did a couple of meditations and I stopped and I did a meditation and of course everything was heightening, on the alert, about Ukraine.  And of course I'm praying for, you know, no invasion and I'm praying for peace. And I'm, you know, I'm trying to elevate my own awareness and consciousness to send love, right, to that region, and peace. And, um, I had a dream that night and, um, and I'm on the road, right? And I'm traveling, I'm staying in somebody else's house. You wouldn't think that you would get a pre cognition, um, because you're at a source in a way, but I did have a dream. And I saw that, that Ukraine was going to be invaded. So I woke up in the morning and of course I was sad, right. ‘Cause I wanted to try in some way to provide some calming energy. I know that sounds silly, but studies have proven when we pray or we send positive energy or even neutral energy, sometimes it can make an effect, right.  That’s quantum entanglement. Um, and so I was sharing with my breakfast friends, you know, I saw that Ukraine was invaded last night in my dream. Now the interesting thing about our conversation in the morning was of course I'm upset, right ‘Cause I don't want this to happen. It's more conflict. And you could see how peace could be achieved, right. With the right kind of diplomacy. Um, but the friends that I was with there were like, well, does it matter?  And I was like, of course it matters. You know, there's going to be, if this happens and it comes to pass, there's going to be horror from war. But their perspective was more of a, a detached perspective. Like, well, maybe this needs to happen in order for peace to be achieved. Right. So the interesting thing about pre-cognitive, pre-cognitive of future events is it brings you the information. The maddening part of that is why, what is the role?  Why are the sensitive perceiving that? Why are psychics getting the, getting the heads up on it? I do think that there are some parts of it that detachment is able to help us with, because if we can detach from it, it's less painful to see the suffering, but I actually choose the suffering because the detachment part of it for me, does not put my mind at ease. So, I’m saying, well, this is a spiritual evolution and peace could be achieved.  I actually feel that it's better to, as an empath, feel the suffering. So yes, I've experienced it. Other sensitives have experienced it.  And it's part of it. It's part of being able to perceive. It's not just threats, it's survival in a sense. So I do think that's how it taps into the collective unconscious. I think it’s human. I think it's human nature to be connected to one another 

in that quantum entanglement, to help each other.

 

Jenna: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I think it's important that we say that out loud. So people as they're experiencing that, if they are, that they don't write it off and that they feel comfortable, you know, allowing that. Then like you said, allowing the feeling, you know, to come with that and, and to trust, you know, what you’re receiving in that moment, even if it is a little maddening.

 

Courtney:  It is maddening.  And I think that's the scary thing too. Why people shut it down because sometimes you'll see things that you don't want to see.  So in my prayer, I was praying for Ukraine in a way, and for diplomacy and peace and lap, no invasion.  Um, my dream was basically answering there is going to be invasion. This is going to happen. You need to deal with the fact that it is going to happen. So there is a response, right for intuitives and psychics, and the way we respond. And so I do and have heard and studied individuals who see things before they happen.  And part of that counseling part, is to be able to handle our feelings about it and what to do next and to kind of diminish the fear and also go into action. What are the action steps that we can take to help? And so with Ukraine, it's like, how can I help, you know, how can I be of service? Um, I think sometimes there's not a direct action that we have to take, but we are observers or Watchers in a sense, um, to be able to witness the trauma in order for healing to happen. I do think that's another effect that's rarely talked about. You see it in therapy where somebody will experience a horrendous trauma. And the reason why therapy is effective is because there's a witness, a watcher, someone to observe the experience of telling the story through a narrative way, because so often trauma is encoded on us visually and physically, and we are not able to communicate what experience - what was experienced. And so that's why art therapy and expression is so important to be able to articulate what happened because trauma is a wordless phenomenon. It's encoded in all these other ways, but it's not verbal. And so the reason why expressive art therapy is so important is because it allows us to communicate what happened to us. So meta, from a meta-cognitive sense, what I'm talking about is sensitives, who are basically observing this, whether it's at a distance or pre- cognitively where the Watchers are of the observers of it…So we can allow healing in some metacognitive way. Yeah. 

 

Jenna:  That’s far out, that's far out, but it does seem to be the way human nature can heal is through having an observer or a watcher or someone who doesn't interpret our experience, but it lets it happen.  

 

Sinéad: Yeah. I think you're saying this Courtney, because I think we do know this, you know, this is one of the things that really fascinates me about where we're at as humans, because they think we do actually know so much of what you're talking about right now, but we don't know that we know it.  Right. So for example, like you're talking about the power of witnessing the collective human experience, that all of us need to bear witness for each other.  And so I'm thinking of, for example, really easy off the top example, that very famous poem by the priest during world war two, who said, uh, first they came - first, they came for the socialists and no one said anything, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a socialist.  And then they came for these people and I didn’t speak up because I wasn't one of them. And then they came - and soon there was nobody left, only me, and I was taken away.  Right. So we do know this. It's like, we know this, this deep wise compassionate part of ourselves that is connected to that cosmic universal consciousness that we all have access to you and we all share.  So I think, I think of that when I hear you talking about the collective power of bearing witness, and I think, you know, this is also why Jenna and I wanted to start this podcast because we bring people together.  We are publicizing, publicizing conversations that we think people need to hear. Right. They create a feeling of belonging, being of community of, oh, I'm not crazy.  Oh, I'm not alone in feeling this, oh, that's an answer for what I was experiencing or, oh, there's the word for it. Right. So for you, and you've had so many of these incredible experiences and have been growing more and more in your knowledge and understanding, with a language that you can use to help other people and understand theirs.  So what about your ET experiences, your extraterrestrial and UFO experiences? Have you been able to find words to explain them, or do you think that, that it is what I want to ask you is, do you think that that is one kind of, um, whole experience in itself that is distinct?  Or do you think that that is just another manifestation of the language of the universal cosmos trying to connect with us? Does that make sense? 

 

Courtney: Yes. Yes. It makes absolute sense. It might not make sense to somebody who hasn't lived through it, but when you have lived through it and you try to conceive of it and you you're asking questions, like why, you know, which so many people who are experiencers ask, why, why did this happen to me? Why was I there at that moment? Or what is the root of this phenomenon? I can tell you that. So many of my experiences that I can remember from childhood fit, that classic diagnostic, where you hear all these experiences talk about out of body travel when they were young, you know, astral travel downloads when they were young, right. And receiving information. I mean, um, I went through a fairly, uh, violent childhood. I also lived with poverty. So I would say that my childhood was probably very traumatic in many ways.

And were those things, flights of fancy creative escape patterns or escape routes? I don't know, but that is what led to my work on understanding trauma in a new way, in a new light and trying to understand it from a less stigma flying way. So I do think looking back now, I didn't know, this, if you would've asked me 10 years ago, was I somebody who would have thought the UFO phenomenon touched my life? I would have absolutely said categorically, no, no, but having had in the last 10 years, the experiences that I have and including my children, I can't really deny the fact that it's touched my life and probably was there from an early age. I just didn't have the, um, as a child, you don't have the ability to understand what's happening. You don't have the communication to be able to speak outside of yourself as a child and say, um, something's wrong. Right? You also think, and internalize as a child, that you're the only one that has a problem. You don't recognize that other people are experiencing the same thing or other people have problems.So I would definitely say the UFO phenomenon and UAP thing goes back to my childhood. And the reason why is because as I've researched my experience of seeing lights, and then what happened after I saw the lights and my daughter too, there were after effects. There were very clear, uh, like, um, lingering things that happened to my consciousness that were connected to seeing the lights or connecting with whatever intelligence was there that night that led me to track back and look at a lot of my early childhood experiences, the intuitions, knowing things, but not being validated for it, but certainly having that awareness and especially the dreams of, in my childhood that were so profound, so vivid and were ongoing. Um, I can't look at it now and say that, that it wasn't connected without, you know, denying the phenomenon's reach. Cause it has a very wide reach. 

 

Jenna:  Pardon me now, you know, fast forward all these years, you know, after your research and study and getting to where you're at in life, with what you know about sensitivity and consciousness and how our universe works, what would you say to people who are just now maybe making that connection about some anomalous events or things that they may have, you know, brief memory of from childhood that might be ET, UFO related? 'Cause that's a, that's a lot to also unpack and process on this journey. What would you say to those people who are very early in that journey?  What might help them as they're going through that process? 

 

Courtney:  I know that it's such a complex subject matter and it overlaps into so many different disciplines of spirituality, psychology, you know, um, you know, mental health, right, and traumatic experiences and PTSD. And so the thing that I always recommend is to keep it simple and not get caught up into outside influences because it's all within us. That's what I've learned. That a lot of these, um, experiences come either into our life because it's part of who we are. We don't necessarily recognize it, but it's part of who we are. And so try to stay simple, which means when synchronicities happen, follow them, follow the synchronicities.

That's my best piece of advice because it's never steered me wrong. It's always led me to the information, knowledge and people that I need when I'm on the quest of trying to understand why this is happening or why me, because that's what it kind of boils down to put a lot of times is why me w you know, what is my purpose? Because a lot of times when you, when you are an experience or you feel like your lead check, and sometimes that feels like a mission. Sometimes it feels like a destiny, but to try to stay out of the ego, the best thing to do is stay humble. And to let the simplicity of synchronicities in those other things, guide you to your own inner wisdom and truth. 

 

Jenna: Beautiful. Thank you for that. I think the, the conversation around synchronicity is something we, we need to have more of because it's hard to trust in that initially, right? When so much of our, our training and upbringing has been to not, you know, operate following synchronicities, but I think, you know, Sinéad and I can both the test from personal experience that by allowing that to be our guiding light, you know, our, our north star, in a way, it has led to the right situations, the right people, the right conversations, the right information to support our healing process and to integrate more aspects of ourself and to learn about our soul and who we are. So I think that's beautiful advice. 

 

Courtney: Yeah. Well, I think it's a big part of it, don't you? I think it's a big part of the phenomenon that can also be denied is that we are led to one another to help one another. And so synchronistically, I've learned to have faith and trust in that, even though I know that's me just speaking that out, but I have learned to have faith and trust, um, because the work has led me there, but it also does seem to be undeniable that it will. So I wouldn't say that and I wouldn't take it lightly. 

 

Sinéad: Yeah. Yeah. It is undeniable. It really is. And of course you have to be willing to step into having that experience to know, right. As you were kind of alluding to earlier, it's really difficult to explain these things to someone who has not experienced it for themselves. So I go back again, Jenna, to what Linda Backman said, when we interviewed her recently, she was talking about, uh, asking someone if they've ever had shrimp and the person would say, no, I've never tried it, I’ve never tried shrimp, but someone explained it to me. You know? I mean, it's just not the same thing at all. You can't possibly know what it is. That's a very simplistic example, but of course you have to have these experiences. So the synchronicities, I so agree, they're like breadcrumbs, right? You just pick up one breadcrumb at a time. It feels to me almost like the universe is knocking on my door. And you know, I don't always have to answer the door, but if it keeps knocking, it keeps visiting you year after year after year, and you're not answering the door that doesn't make any sense, you know, at least, you know, try for the openness, the willingness to try it at least once and see what's there. And I'm kind of interested in your view on that actually, that everyone is - Jenna was talking about - everyone has gifts, gifts, and everyone has things that are special skills, special abilities that we bring into this life, but not all of us utilize them. Not all of us even become aware that they're there. Right? So there seems to be this wide variety. Of course, there are people who totally get it. People who don't get it at all and everything in between. What do you think explains that just in the realm of consciousness, what do you think he explains that because, um, Jenna and I have talked to so many people, Linda Backman included, who have theories, you know, who have beliefs as to why that happens such as a soul contract, that everything is laid out and we follow it, but there's always this element of choice.  Like, that even when we're in the current lifetime, that we may have agreed to be part of, we're still always choosing what we are doing. We're still always coming up to a crossroads and then being able to make a choice. But what is your take on that?  On, you know, how much freedom and flexibility we have in our life to be on the path that we should quote unquote, be on, using the skills and abilities that we have versus not coming into any awareness of them at all, even though they are there.

 

Courtney: Well, I think that's the biggest part of the mystery. That's the most fun. And since <indistinct>, whatever the word is - that keeps that curiosity alive in me as somebody who would consider myself a social scientist, because one of the things I really was fascinated by going into this was, well, how do I do this study, right? How do I conceive of consciousness, surviving physical death, physical bodily death? What way can I contribute to this field of research and knowledge? And one of the things that I thought was the most interesting would be to take young children who come in with gifts, right? Who are prodigies, who can play the piano, never touched a piano or another individual who can, you know, have, uh, be able to look at a building one time, right. And then draw it out completely spatially, you know, and never have drawn before. So those are things that I thought were so fascinating for the abilities that we bring in. Right. That could be a very clear way of looking at children and looking at those prodigy, like experiences to explain it. But I didn't go in that direction. I went in another direction, but I still think that is one of the cornerstones about destiny that could maybe explain soul contracts or could maybe explain why some people get more is that because they have to develop a concerto that will, you know, somewhere down the line impact, right. Humanity. I mean, we don't necessarily understand the wide reaching, um, consequences of somebody coming in with a prodigy-like ability like that. But that could be, that could be one argument. Um, I think that is very interesting to look at, in terms of the gifts and why would they come in and why would people have one person have more than someone else? Now I do think that individuals have abilities. The second part of your, your statement that they don't necessarily develop because they don't want to, or they had it, maybe they did have it in another life. Maybe it caused trauma. Maybe it caused death even. And so there's this hindrance around developing it. And maybe there is that unconscious knowing as well, like a pre-life memory that influences not wanting to develop it. ‘Cause it had ramifications or even definitely consequences. I do think that's in play as well. What about human potential? And being able to access all the potential within us and being able to realize it in our lifetime, are there crossroads?

Yes. I totally adhere to your method of looking at crossroads because it does seem to be where we have a choice to make.

And here's how it was described to me one time, but a good teacher of mine, she was an FBI profiler, but she was also not just a psychological, behavioral analyst. She was also a psychic. She, you know, she could help the BAU find, um, people who were lost and missing and children and all of that. She was extremely gifted. And, um, she was assessing me one time and I showed up and she looked at me and she sat down with me and she couched it like this, which is also kind of a simple way of looking at it. But it's interesting. Cause you, you do arrive at the crossroads and a lot of times there does seem to be there, someone there as your, um, accountability person. Right. She said, for some reason, she's like, you're like, you're like this huge, huge spirit. And she's like, but you're like a plant. Like you're like putting it all in like this little pot or this little box. She's like, you just, you don't want to be your full self for some reason. And she, I thought she was crazy. And she said this to me. I was like, what is, what terms is she talking in? But it actually turned out that she was right. And here's why she was right in this instant. And it was the perfect timing and the perfect teacher and the way it all synchronistically flowed. I had multiple times prior to meeting the psychological profiler, big, huge, visionary experiences that frightened me. And I shut my perception down in a way that was very visceral and very intentional because I was afraid. I was very afraid. It frightened me what I saw. And at this point in meeting her, one of the things that she helped gently guide me through was that true, that, that transition of opening up opening up into who I really was and feeling my own potential and being safe in that and being okay, trusting myself. But the thing that she, the caveat was, she said, when you accept that huge part of yourself and you integrate it into your perception and your physical self and your mind and your body and your spirit, she said the old life that you had, your normal life, it all falls away. Or it goes into destruction, or it's chaos. And that is exactly what happened. I mean, every facet of my life just disintegrated and it was utter chaos and it was suffering. So I personally think because of my own transition and having to go through that transformation multiple times, by the way, it's not an easy thing to do. So I think that because we have that crossroad, sometimes we go, oh, hell no, hell to the no, I do not have the energy, the wherewithal, the capacity, the space, maybe my relationship or my partner won't accept this about me. Right? A lot of times we, we, we, we push those sides of ourselves down because we want to be accepted.

So that's what I think, I think the crossroads is there and I think it might be very clear choice. And we just say, now with that in mind, this is one of the most important things I could possibly say.

If you are a healer, which I had been presented multiple times in those visionary awareness with, with spirits, basically saying, you need, you need to be a healer it's time now. And I went, you know, no, and I pushed it down. What I found out through study cross-culturally of healers in their community, um, through having these types of talents and not using them is if you don't, I write about this in my book too, you can kind of suppress that energy and it can make you sick. You can actually get physically ill by not releasing routinely that energy that's supposed to come through you as a healer. And so that is one of the things that I have learned that I like to point out to people is that find the right person, find out who that teacher is, or that coach, or that person who can help you because it's easier to let it flow through than to try to push it down. 

 

Commercial: When you're embarking on a spiritual journey, you start to honor and savor the friendships and soulmate bonds that last. Sinéad and I found each other last year and knew pretty immediately that we were meant to start the Star Family Wisdom Podcast together. And that's exactly how the team at Smudge Wellness got started - founded by two best friends who bonded over late night therapy sessions, their love of pop music. And of course, crystals, their approach to spiritual wellness, is rooted in self compassion. They believe in practical magic that we must embrace our imperfections and that spiritual wellness is deeply personal. Smudge Wellness offers out of this world tools and rituals for helping you feel more connected to the power you have, and to give you the guidance to amplify it. They are also deeply committed to the fight for racial and social equity - and they love Lizzo! So, you know, they're good people. From smudging kits to crystals, to beautiful intention decks, Smudge has a beautiful spiritual tools for your practice.  So follow the link in the show notes and use code commit at checkout to get 10% off your order. 

 

Courtney: There’s also a famous story about, you know, the choices that we make to be aware, to be awake and aware in the present. And there is this story about a man who's traveling on the road and he sees the trash and he ignores it. So he doesn't have to deal with it or pick it up. And then another person comes along on the road and has the choice. Well, I'm going to pick it up, right. I would make the choice because I see it and I'm aware of it and it's more work, right? It's more work to pick it up. It's more work to acknowledge it and to put it in the, you know, in the place where it belongs, but there, and argue argument could be made either way that that is actually the easier way to accept the fear or to accept the acknowledgement and the awareness. Because the other way, the other way is, is not as easy. It's going to be challenging. 

 

Jenna: Yeah. It's going to give you challenges to rise to that new level that you're being called to. And you know what you said about not allowing or full energy to move through you, whether you're a healer or, you know, sensitive, I think that applies to those forks in the road and, and meeting our purpose and coming into wholeness. I’ll just very briefly use an example - of leaving Whole Foods to pursue this path and to pursue the work that I'm doing now. I had a very visceral moment and experience of knowing that if I stayed and if I pursued that fork in the road, by staying in the corporate world and going down that path, I was going to make myself sick. I was not going to be well. Because I was not allowing my energy to move and express in the way that it needed to. And so I've had that experience of being on the brink of unwellness because I had a fork in the road to take. And so I think like you said, it can be so scary and big to make those decisions, but when you do and you get to the other side of them, it can be so fulfilling and rewarding and you feel much more of yourself. And is that what you have felt, you know, on your journey as you've gotten to this point? Like, do you feel just like your full self now compared to where you were?

 

Courtney: Yes. I mean, I, I had things, something shed away, there were relationships that were shed, right? Because I was living like my old self for the self that I thought was making life comfortable so I could belong or not talk about these experiences if they weren't accepted. And once I got to the place where it was like, it was really not a choice at all, it was like, okay. Um, this is apparently who I am. That the part that gets frightening, I think, is not understanding the language in which the soul communicates.

And so, because you come to the crossroads and the soul is, I feel right there with you going, Hey, this is it like, except the mantle, right? Or, Hey, this is what's going to happen if you don't accept. Right? Like there's some frightening things that kind of come into the psyche because the psyche seems to be a equilibrium, like a balancing force between your ego, you know, yourself in the world and your perception and your spiritual divinity, which is there with you, I believe all along. So I do think that if you don't accept, right, it comes back to you, it recycles and it looks in this life anyway, from what I've noticed, it looks like the people that you partner with or you're in relationship with, or the type of jobs that you continue to choose, or the type of stumbling blocks that you're having towards success. Like, it seems like if you don't accept at those crossroads, you'll continue to get scenarios that played out for you in material reality, where you're like, oh, it's this again? Or it's this person again, or dang, like, I didn't learn that. So I have to do it again. So I would say yes, like to be able to be free and my full expression of who I am, it brings like a confidence, like it's okay. If there were friends that were shared in the past, I'm going to make new ones, right. It's a new perspective or it's okay. You know, if this thing doesn't come along right now, I know that something will, so it's that faith and trust and being who you are a hundred percent. And I have to say that the miracles that have happened in picking up the mantle and accepting it, going beyond what science can really, uh, explain to us. So there have been people that had been healed at a distance. Um, I had one, a friend of mine who I communicated with when she was in a frightening, frightening situation, medically and thought she was going to have to have a surgery. And she was healed the next morning. And I had a dream of her and we were doing energy work. And, you know, she got this like last minute appointment with a surgeon. So we could look at this thing and possibly go into surgery. And she didn't have to, because of the connection to the, whatever that non-ordinary reality was that we were both in, on a contract on assuming, right. And in doing the healing and her seeking the guidance, she could walk! The thing disappeared. The surgeon was like, why did you bring me in for this consultation? You know? And she was like, I don't know, the, the, the <indistinct> was there. You know? So I have opened myself up to all the possibilities, right? Like praying for, before we found out about Ukraine, you open yourself up to the possibility that we can influence things, not just in our own life with our intention, but at a distance and, and others and help others along the way as we're supposed to, because we've been through it before as healers or teachers. Right. We've gone through these processes so we can hold space for others. So I, I had a positive experience, but I wanted to clarify that, that it was frightening for me. Yeah. It was frightening. Like I saw imagery and my soul was communicating in ways that were like, you know, made me backpedal and go no, and suppress, but I got into a lot more trouble suppressing than I did when I finally accepted it with the right teacher at the right time when I could, what I could handle it.

It's not something to take lightly. 

 

Sinéad: Yeah. It's a journey. There's a lot of work and it is, it's fascinating how these opportunities to grow. I agree with you. I think they do keep coming back, even if we're like, no, or we don't even have awareness that an opportunity is being presented to us in one lifetime. I mean, right. That same situation, I found that it keeps, it keeps coming back and back and back, like, are you sure? You know, and then we, we’re able to have multiple opportunities, right. To be able to say yes or no. Um, but it's as if our innate nature needs to be what it needs to be. And so it never leaves us alone in the pursuit of trying to become its most, whole state. Right. So it keeps nagging us and keeps bothering us and keeps poking us and saying, Hey, I'm over here - would you like to learn something a little more than what you're used to? And I love that we have that opportunity, you know, multiple times in life in one lifetime, but also through many lifetimes, to keep learning and keep growing. So on that note, it's about time for us to wrap up. But I want to ask you something. Do you think that our purpose, because you've gone - again, you've gone through such depth of exploration in, you know, the human psyche, human nature, human energy, human consciousness. Do you have a theory as to why we aren't here and what the purpose is of us being here in this dimension on this earth at this time? 

 

Courtney: So I have been told specifically multiple things, you know, from, from, um, apprenticing, right from apprenticing through, um, like a spiritual apprentice to understand spiritually the nature of existence. And so I have, you know, specific, specific belief systems that I adhere to and practice through my own, um, my own healing modalities, but also through my own philosophies. But I think about it a lot. I think about the nature of existence. And I wonder why, and Lately, lately I've gotten to the place that I do feel on some level. I'm not wondering to subscribe fully to the nature of reality being illusion. Although I do think that that has a certain appeal with the Buddhist thought that there are levels, there are levels of awareness. So I'm to the place now where I think that there are levels of awareness. And I think some individuals start to work on those levels of awareness. And you see more of reality through your own individual perception, but why are we born on the planet at this time? I think some people, like your community, are starseeds. This is where I am now. I do believe that some people are coming here from other locations, either through portals or through different types of quantum, um, systems to be born here now because they are actually making contracts to be here on the earth. I've, I've come to this notion through talking with other individuals and teachers who have felt the same way. And I do think the next generation of children we're going to see them be like we are now, but more expanded in their own, in their own perception as children, because that's the evolution. So I think starseeds are being born on the planet now that have unique types of perception that need help and support.

So they can do their work without necessarily having the learning curve, the long learning curve, like someone like myself has had as a teacher.

 

Jenna: I love that. That's such a good note to end on that everyone watching most, all of you are star seeds. We're here to do, do this work together and to, to, to open ourselves, right, to what's possible, like you said, Courtney - and take those leaps of faith and become more whole and heal and help help the world heal through our understanding of what's possible. So thank you for this conversation has been so fulfilling for me in so many ways and validating and in so many ways, thank you for being with us, Courtney.  

 

Courtney: I’m glad I know. Sometimes it seems like it’s labyrinthian, but I feel like when you get to those stories or you get to those different antidotes, somebody hears it and it does resonate with them. So I'm glad you also felt validated and also felt like, um, yeah, just true in who you are and - and watch the children. I think the children in the next generation of the ones that we really need to look to, because I think they have the answers 

 

Jenna: Agreed. Agreed. We actually have an episode on the three waves of volunteers. I don't know if you've read Dolores Cannon's work. Yes, yes. Yeah. And we talked about how the new children coming in, they're the third wave. So parents need to learn about the waves of volunteers and how to support them. Super important.

One of the things we want to do - from what I, from what I have been able to discern intuitively through my own, um, trajectory, they are just, these new ones are just, when I was talking about my experience of consciousness being so far out, it just seems like they're so far advanced from what I've seen, this is just my own like predictive, visionary ability of seeing them like we're going to have to work really hard just to stay, you know, understanding that cause their consciousness is so it's, it's so far out. And then through their perception, they have to like harness that through their mind and body. So that's a difficult journey that they have and then to fit into society and be understood. It's going to take a big, it's going to take a big village, your village being the leading edge of that. So I'm very grateful to you're here. 

 

Jenna: Yes. We want to build a, build a kid village at some point, Star Kids Wisdom and Sinead, Sinead, Sinead has been on the leading edge of that. Right. And her, her work and her career understanding, you know, children with special needs and, and how that just expanded. They are many of them. 

 

Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. It is one of the reasons I went to so far - it is, it is where we're supposed to be. 

 

Sinéad:  So we’re wrapping up and Courtney, we're going to have you back, but I just want to say, I completely took in what you said. And you know, that is my own experience after being a public school educator for 15 years, you know, I'm seeing that as well, and many educators are talking about that, although they don't understand what it is. So this is definitely a time for us to really, to refocus on children and on the youth of today and the fact that they are going to be the ones coming up and managing this world. And we need to help them figure out how to do that and help them support themselves and their natural gifts and, and becoming empowered. So I really appreciate you as an example of that and not just for children, but you know, personal empowerment for adults in so many ways as well by flipping stereotypes and all of these misunderstandings we have about how we all are supposed to be, are not supposed to be in what's okay, and what isn't okay about how we're supposed to operate. You really flip that on its head and you expand it for people. So I want to encourage people to go to your website. You know, we have all of your information in the show notes, um, your amazing books, your paper is up online, as you were mentioning, on the Biegelow website. And I will put that in the show notes as well. You have so much to offer Courtney and this could, this conversation could have gone off in 5 million directions for several hours, because there's so much to discuss with you. So we'd definitely like to have you back. I, for everyone listening right now, really hope you enjoyed the episode. So grateful to Courtney for being here today and sharing her wisdom with us and her experience and her groundedness, which is so valuable in communicating this kind of ineffable information.  Hopefully not so ineffable for so much longer, but really difficult to describe this experienced by just words - it’s very, it's very important to be grounded in that.  And you really model that. So thank you everybody for listening. 

 

Jenna:  Thank you Courtney, for being here, don't forget to like, and subscribe, share with your friends and, uh, let us know what you think. You know, we love to hear from you write comments on the, uh, on our YouTube channel, underneath the episode, look for Courtney and she will be back. Thanks again, Courtney, for being here with us, it was a really, really wonderful conversation. We value you and your work.

 

Courtney:  Nice. Thanks for having me. I feel honored and very blessed. 

 

Jenna:  Thank you Courtney. Thanks everyone. We'll see you next time. Bye. For now.