EPISODE 20 TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the Star Family Wisdom Podcast! I'm Jenna Layden, the founder of Star Family Wisdom, and a former Global Vice President for Whole Foods Market. Thanks so much for being with us today. If you are new to the podcast, thanks for joining and checking us out. If you are coming back, thanks for tuning in again, and don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, leave comments, help YouTube know you want more of these videos.  If you're watching on YouTube, it's been so fun to connect with all of you and hear what you have to say  And, uh, we're just so thrilled to be on this journey with you. And today my co-host Sinéad Whelehan is not with us, but I am interviewing a very special guest, Paul Anthony Wallis.  Paul Anthony Wallis is an internationally best-selling author whose books probe world mythologies and ancestral narratives for their insights into human origins, human potential, and our place in the cosmos.  Paul served as a church doctor, a theological educator, and an archdeacon in the Anglican church in Australia. And he has published numerous titles on Christian mysticism and spirituality.  He's a popular speaker at summits and conferences around the world now, and his 2020 book Escaping From Eden, uh, got tons of acclaim and was hailed by George Noory as this generation's Chariots Of The Gods.  And this is what propelled Paul onto the international stage as the go-to guy in the field of paleo contact.  His internationally best-selling sequel, The Scars of Eden, is endorsed by Erich Von Daniken, and his new book Echoes of Eden is out now and has just been endorsed by George Noory.  And you can find Paul's interviews and a lot of his work on his YouTube channels, Paul Wallis, uh, on YouTube and then The Fifth Kind TV.  And this was a very special conversation following the book review that I did for Paul Wallis', uh, Escaping From Eden.  And if you have not watched that episode, I highly recommend that you go back and watch that just to get a foundational understanding of Paul's work.  If you have not read the books - that's episode 11, again, check that out - in that episode, I talk all about Escaping from Eden and some of Paul's findings as he went back and reviewed the Bible with fresh eyes. And as he started to understand a very different translation of the Bible and how that translation was also corroborated by many other ancient texts and origin stories on our planet.  So this was a really big conversation where we talked a lot about what it means to evolve our worldview while we also maintain a spiritual connection with the universe, with God, with source, and how we can again, evolve our understanding of who God is and what role God or other beings have played in our history, because it's our understanding that both are true, that we absolutely have had ET intervention and presence in our history.  And we have a creator of this universe and we have perhaps experienced some misinterpretation of our ancient history in modern times.  And I love how Paul brings this evolved, you know, Christian perspective to this conversation and shares in very profound ways, how we can absolutely experience a connection with God, with source, on a whole new level when we are willing to open ourselves to a different interpretation of our history and of our spirituality and what that means for us as we move forward.  So we talk a lot about how we process this changing world view that we develop, how we go from being either atheist like myself or people of faith like Paul, to now having this particular worldview, one that includes hybridization and ancient contact from ET beings. One that includes a more spiritually connected and expansive and complex universe.  Then we may be once understood and Paul's perspective and his journey, I think can be a great example for so many people who are on this journey of self-discovery, but also peeling back the layers of our world history and starting to understand that maybe there's something different we need to look at here, and that can be a big thing to process and a big thing to go through.  And for both Paul and I, we acknowledged that we experienced fear in that process and that's normal. And we can move beyond that fear as well.  Paul talks about his connection and learning and education from so many indigenous leaders and elders around the world and how this journey of re translating the Bible with what he knows to be true has helped him understand and integrate indigenous wisdom into his worldview and in his spirituality, which I think is really beautiful.  We talk about energy medicine. We talk about Shamanic Healing, and we talk about all of these things within the context of how can we face our shadow as a civilization so that we can move forward in a more positive way.  So this is a big conversation. We are so thrilled to bring it to you and hope to have more on this topic.  And if you are not familiar with Paul's work, go get familiar with it. We have his website, his YouTube channels, his book links in the show notes. Check out his books, read them in sequential order.  You'll love them. He brings humor and lightness to the topic, which isn't easy, you know, with this kind of topic, but he does a good job of, of helping the reader understand his journey and how he's processed it and, and where we can maybe find some levity in all of this. So enjoy this conversation and we'll see you on the other side.

Jenna:  Okay, welcome everyone. We are here today with Paul Anthony Wallis, who as we discussed is an internationally bestselling author and former archdeacon of the Anglican church in Australia and someone who is quickly on the rise in the field of paleo contact.  If not a leader of the field at this point. And, uh, today we're talking about Paul's books, his research, his personal experience, understanding the ITI contact phenomena, which of course is very near and dear to our hearts here at star family wisdom. So welcome, Paul. We're so excited to have you. 

Paul:  Good. Hey Jenna, thank you so much for having me on your show today. It's such a pleasure. It's such a pleasure. 

Jenna:   I'm a big fan of your work and only found it as recently as I think January of this year.  So I was pretty far along in my research and exploration of these topics before I found your work. And I can just say it has been so validating for me in, in my own experiences and in my changing belief system and the shift in worldview that I've gone through. So thank you for that. 

Paul:  Well, that's wonderful to hear. Thank you. 

Jenna:  Yeah. And for, for those who may not be as familiar with you and your work, let's maybe just start with your origin story because it's a little unusual that a former archdeacon and a former atheist would be having a conversation like this today. So, so maybe just kind of briefly, you know, give the audience a synopsis of what led you to this point of deeper research into our history.  And re-interpreting, you know, our biblical and ancient texts. How did you get here? 

Paul:  Sure. Well, you're absolutely right, Jenna. It does surprise people. People know me as someone who writes in the field of patio contact and then it surprises them to hear I've come from a background in church ministry. And I was 33 years in church-based ministry as a church doctor, a theological educator and an Archdeacon for the Anglican church in Australia, which is one down from a Bishop. It's kind of a troubleshooting role. But it was in that middle role, the theological educator, that I really met the white rabbit that, uh, led me on this journey to paleo contact because I was training pastors in hermeneutics - and hermeneutics is the principles of interpreting ancient texts.  How should you understand them? What did the author intend? How'd you work that out? And so in training pastors, I would teach things like form criticism source, where you ask, what kind of literature is this and how do you know what it is?

What are the clues within the text and the context. And then where did it come from? Is this the original form?  How does it differ from the original form? And if, if it does differ, why, and these are basic tools that, uh, all pastors learned when they do a theological qualification and it was actually those tools alongside the linguistic tools of asking what do the words mean?  That led me down the avenue that's led me into paleo contact. There are certain key words in the Hebrew texts in particular, the Old Testament, that throw up some anomalies in the stories we generally tell from the Bible.  And it was drilling down into those, with those kinds of questions that opened up a whole world of ancient ET contact history.  

Jenna:  And that's a big, that's big to uncover and, and process. And you had a period of, of time where you weren't, um, busy, you had an injury, you were recovering from that.  And so you, you had time on your hands to really do this extra research and process and, and, and, and really dig deep, you know, internally about what this meant.

And I'm curious before we get into some of the details of your findings, as you had some of those initial aha moments, which were probably quite startling, how did you process that emotionally, intellectually, you know, what was your process like going through that?

Well, I had long suspected, there might be some other entities washing around in the ancient texts. Um, partly through the time I had had in the past to look at translation issues, partly through the work of ministry, because in 33 years in ministry, you will come across some paranormal situations that you have to interpret, and you have to begin to confronting that there are a few more entities washing around in the cosmos than we generally talk about it.  That was part of it. Another aspect of my journey was that when I was 11 years old, I had read Chariots of the Gods by Erich Von Daniken, who I felt had accurately put his finger on a gap in our ability to explain ourselves as a conscious, intelligent species.  And he raised the question, would it make more sense of our development as a species, if we allowed for the possibility, there may have been external interventions to aid our development.  And I thought that made a lot of sense. That was in the back of my mind for many years. And then my musings on that were reiterated more than a decade ago when to my absolute astonishment, the Roman Catholic church called on the Pontifical Academy of Sciences - this was under Pope Benedict, the 16th, most conservative Pope in my lifetime - asked the Pontifical Academy of Sciences to hold a symposium, to discuss the theological implications of contact with other civilizations.  I could have fallen off my seat when I heard that, ‘cause it was only 400 years ago that the same institution was burning people at the stake for merely suggesting there might be life in the cosmos and following that symposium, which was called a colloquium, senior spokespeople for the curious stepped forward, and basically said, there's no theological issue.  We shouldn't be surprised to meet cosmic neighbors. We should be ready to embrace them as brother and sister aliens. We shouldn't be surprised because they're in the Bible, they're in the old Testament and the new Testament and hearing that from a theologian as senior as Guy Consolmagno, who's a senior astronomer for the Vatican, uh, I raised an eyebrow and I thought, could I really have missed something as glaring as aliens in the Bible?  And so the question had been in my mind for about a decade and then Jenna, you're absolutely right. It was just the good fortune of an accident and an ultimate frisbee injury that gave me some convalescence time to go back to these questions and find out what was really going on there.  And the gift of time is so vital because since doing the research for the Eden series from time to time, I'll ask fellow preachers and pastors, are you aware that the biblical stories of the Elohim which are translated as God's stories are probably based on the Mesopotamian stories or -  “yes.  I remember that from college”. Yes. Are you aware that the Mesopotamian stories are not about God? They're about Sky people?

“Oh yes. I vaguely remember that.” Are you aware that Sky people probably means ETs? “Yes. I suppose it probably does mean that.”  So what are your thoughts about - are God's stories being based on stories of ETs or? - I hadn't really put much thought to it.  And the reason I hadn't put much thought to it is because like everybody else, pastors and preachers are over-scheduled and they will spot these anomalies as I did.

But until you have something like an ultimate Frisbee injury, you don't have the time to follow your curiosity and ask, what does that mean?  Because you've got your job to do of running an organization, keeping a congregation happy and most congregations, more or less expect you to keep rehearsing the same limited Canon of ideas. That's - their security is built on that. And any pastor knows if they go down this rabbit hole, it's going to throw up some really fundamental questions. So they need not only the time, but they need the courage to do it. And I was very fortunate that I was not leading a congregation when I did the research, because it really would split most congregations to put out books like I have in the Eden series. About half your congregation will say, thank you pastor for putting this on the table, either ‘cause I've seen this in the Bible as well, or because I've had close encounter experiences and I know there's something else going on, but the other half of the congregation would say, I'm very sorry, pastor.

We think this is heresy. You can't stay here. And so it was the gift of that time that allowed me the opportunity to follow the data, to see where it led and then realize that this conversation about paleo contact was part of mainstream conversation in the beginning of Christianity before it became a taboo.  

Jenna:  Right. And it also appears that, you know, as we unpack this new interpretation of the biblical texts and, and the stories we've heard in, in, in churches all over, uh, this country and many others that both ETs being part of our history and us having a loving creator, God, can both be true. And so I'd love to maybe just touch on that for a moment. And, and what, you know, your, I guess current belief system is for anyone who is a person of faith or has been a person of faith, you know, how do you reconcile these two?  Because I think like you said, you know, for any congregation that would split, you know, a lot of the, the, the group down, down the middle and how do you help people reconcile that?

Paul:  Jenna, that is one of the main questions I'm asked when people come to me for coaching three quarters of the time.  That's essentially the question they're asking because they believe in God or they've had powerful experiences that point to the reality of God, but then they've seen these other things.  They've had these other experiences. How do you hold them together? And you're right. There were a few moments in my research journey where it did feel a bit like the floor was falling away from me because, my, my worldview was suddenly all at sea.  And I remember a particular moment when the data was leading me to the conclusion that humanity happens - as we know ourselves to be - as the result of a series of interventions by ET colonizers who came and did genetic modification work with the forms of life that were already on the planet in order to generate a species that was intelligent enough to work with or to work for them. And when I found, I had to reach that conclusion from the data in the Bible, as well as in ancestral narratives all around the world, that was a really difficult moment to process because for 30 years, I'd lived in a universe where humankind was God's special, beloved, unique creation, the apple of his eye.  What, do you really allow us to be toyed with? Like we've toyed with sheep and created Dolly the sheep, where do you allow some other species to come in and breed us?  Like we've bred dogs?  And suddenly it was - it felt like a massive demotion for the human race. And my idea of how much God loved us suddenly seemed to do a flip.  And I had to take a while to think that through and just think through the implications of what a populated universe means.

If it's a populated universe, then it's a universe full of species where just one of them just as planet earth is full of species and we're just one of them. So what's the difference between us breeding dogs and cosmic neighbors modifying us. What's the difference between us artificially creating Dolly, the sheep, and someone having done that to primates here, there is no difference, but emotionally it feels very different. And where it took me was to begin expanding my concept of who and what God is because I have to allow my image of God to change from what was really a very anthropomorphic image, a puppet master, a father Christmas kind of figure.  I begin thinking, dare I say, in a bit more of a mature way about God as the source of the cosmos, what does it mean to really accept that God is the source of the cosmos, had everything in it that in which we all live and move and have our being.  Now that's the definition from the apostle Paul, but in a way I'd never really fully thought through the implications of that. Particularly if you accept we're in a populated universe and I came to terms with it, and I realized that I still believed in God, the source of the cosmos, I had still had many experiences that pointed to the consciousness and intelligence of the creative source. I just needed to understand it a little bit differently. And at first it was scary, but further down the track having done the processing, my sense of connection with God is more stable and profound than ever it's been before. Uh, so though the reframing is scary at the start. You get to a place of far greater acceptance, contentment assurance, and suddenly it's an exciting universe to be in.

Jenna:  Again, I love that you share that because I think that's so important for people who are on this journey and, and who are going through that scary moment. ‘Cause I went through that as well. You know, having this, this realization that, oh my gosh, our story is not what you know, I was taught and told.  And, and, and once we get to the other side of that, it is beautiful to understand we actually have this, this connection with source, with God, with -

Paul:  Exactly. And we all do, we all do. So I had to get out of my tribal thinking as well, where it was only Christians who were connected with God in my view.  Now the whole cosmos is connected, but at first it feels like you're losing a father figure because that's been your image of God.  And at the end of the process, you have this far more intimate sense of connection when you started with, but it's almost like you have to go through a grief process for your old worldview, even if you think, okay, I can see my old world view was wrong or inaccurate. You still have to grieve for it because it's been your life. It's been your place of security. And you have to go through a process of letting it go in order for a new worldview to form. And it's a little bit like the stages of grief. So you begin with denial, “oh, that can't be right. God wouldn't let that happen”, was sort of my first initial thought. And then you have bargaining. No, I can see this new information is real. Can I massage it into my old worldview? And I meet a lot of people trying to do that. And the answer is, no, you can't really, you do have to change your world view in the light of data. And then you get angry. 

Jenna:  Oh my goodness. I’ve been there too. 

Paul:  I've been like, how could those guys at theological college allow us to miss this?

And I'm angry with myself for not having joined the dots before. And then you reach a point of, uh, depression, uh, where you think, uh, what do I do now? What do I do in this new universe? And then you reach acceptance and realizing we are all on a learning journey.  Isn't it wonderful to learn new and truer things. And isn't it now, about how do I live in this cosmos?  How do I thrive in this cosmos? How do I connect with the cosmic source, understanding God in a different way, and how do I reconnect with Jesus? And you can't fast track that process. In my opinion, I do think when your worldview radically shifts, take time over the steps.  Otherwise you can stay trapped in your anger, which could be very energizing, but it makes you bad company. You've got to get to that resolve place of asking the question, well, how do I live in this cosmos? And hopefully that's where my books take people. 

Jenna:  So for anyone who has not read Paul's books, absolutely pick them up.

They have been so pivotal for me on my journey. And, uh, and they're great reads, they're fun. I think you, you have a fun way of articulating this information and, and making it not so heavy, you know, as you're going through that relearning process.

Paul:  Oh, that's certainly my intention. And I hope my humor is in there to carry people along. And I, I tell it a story as well.  So it's not, they're not like textbooks where I, the expert and telling the reader how it is. I share my story and the reader kind of makes the discoveries with me as I make them.

Jenna:  Yeah. I loved that approach. It made it, made it a real fun and easy, easy read, even though the subject matter is a lot to take in.  You know, I want to go back to what you mentioned about Jesus for a moment, because as, as we're going through this world view shift and re re-imagining, you know, how our, our Bible has been written or what those stories even meant, it can call into question, you know, the entire Christian religion and, and what I know to be true is that Jesus, his teachings absolutely still apply, right. That even though this, you know, version of our history may be changing a bit Jesus himself as a teacher and master and son of God who came to earth absolutely had important and profound messages to share with humanity. And so I don't want that to get lost in this, for people who are on this journey of relearning, what would you say about that?

Paul:  Well, that's absolutely right. And you will find Jesus threading through the books because Jesus has been at the center of my life and faith and ministry. And part of my re-framing has been okay, how do I understand Jesus now and his ministry in the light of this new information, because I've had to re-frame my beliefs about the Hebrew scriptures and the meaning of them and the content of them radically. How does that relate to Jesus's teaching? And again, my understanding of Jesus, I would say, has really opened up and I've realized that translation questions are just as important when it comes to Jesus as to the writings of the Hebrew scriptures. So you've got key words in the Hebrew scriptures, like Elohim, which have been translated as God, but often ought to be translated as “the powerful ones”. And we're reading about the powerful ones who visited and colonized and to make that mistake is very distorting of our idea of God. Well, we can make translation mistakes with Jesus that can be distorting as well, or that make it difficult to understand because we see Jesus through the lens of 2000 years of institutional religion. And our starting point is often we kind of assume that Jesus lines up with all the dogmas and doctrines we're familiar with.  And so we'll hear him using certain trigger words and think, oh, he's teaching that. And the way to avoid that kind of confusion is to go to the original texts in the Greek and the Aramaic words that there as well, peel all those layers of assumption back by asking what are the root meanings of the words he used.  And I think one of the most dramatic examples of this for me is in the very first sermon that Jesus stood with in the gospel of Matthew, we're given a one sentence summary of this message that Jesus traveled around sharing why it's translated in most Bibles today.  It sounds like a grave warning. It says repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And it sounds like he's saying you'd better clean your lives up because God is about to show up and you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him.  That's how we hear that you go to the root meanings and you realize it's not a warning. It's an invitation.  The word repent actually means go beyond the mind, go beyond the mind, go beyond your mindset. Think with more than this, go beyond the mind because the amazing powers and principles and people of the cosmos are available to you waiting to be embraced.  Well, there couldn't be a bigger invitation to explore what's possible than that. And then we see Jesus going out and showing what's possible.  Showing what working with cosmic powers looks like.  Working with cosmic powers looks like love, forgiveness, healing, entity removal. And we look at his life and we see what's possible for a human being and it reframes everything that follows. 

Jenna:  So the work of translation or root meanings is really fundamental. And it's opened up to me a far more exciting, positive view of Jesus.  And I've been able to see more clearly the difference between Jesus himself and many of the traditions that have emerged in his name.  And some of those traditions have come out of Bible translation issues, and some have come through the Roman empire, hijacking Christianity and morphing it into something somewhat different to how it started out, right? ‘Cause it appears as though Jesus is really teaching about cosmic consciousness and our ability to, to align with cosmic consciousness, align with our higher selves, higher intelligence and, and, and shift our energy field in a way where we're, we're healed and we're clean channels for the universe to be able to work with the universe and with God in a way that many churches haven't taught and that's that, that that's doing so many people a disservice, right?  If people have this, this internal power that, that we just didn't realize, and that's actually what he was teaching, it seems like absolutely Jesus’ teaching.

Paul:  I love how you summarize that.  It is empowering to people, empowering to ordinary people, but then you see what the empire did with Christianity. It turned it into a religion of worship and obedience compliance, and really pulled Christianity into the feudal structure of the empire, where at the top they had God and the emperor in the middle, they had the bishops and the senators.  And at the bottom of the pyramid, you've got the priests and the people praying bang, and it reached the point where being a good compliant obedient citizen was indistinguishable from their concept of being a Christian. And so those empowering aspects of Jesus's teaching were just ignored for a very, very long time. We have had though, I mean, this is the power of Jesus's teaching and the power of cosmic source.  The power of God. We have had periods of revival through history where totally outside the control of institutional religion, people start having empowering experiences of spirit, empowering experiences of love.

They start experiencing entity removal, these other things, and you see these grassroots movements happening, and that's testament to what Jesus actually modeled.  So it's never been fully extinguished, always resurfaces, but in my books, I point out there is a difference of energy between what empire, an institution, does and what an empowered human being does.  And very often, empowered people are - don't fare well when governments want full spectrum dominance.  Look at what happened with Jesus as an empowered individual.  Look at what happened with John the Baptist. And yet the teaching is there to give us the power and the knowledge and the courage to do something about what we discover.

Jenna:  Yeah, well, and this is like the shift in human consciousness, that's happening on the planet, right? What you described, there is a very patriarchal culture and system that we've created on our planet.  And, and, and, and a lot of your work around, uh, studying indigenous cultures on the planet helps paint a different picture of what a non patriarchal culture might look like and, and how we might operate, you know, in a much more empowered way, which I love.  And before we get into some of that research and study that you've done with just near and dear to my heart, because I'm a shamanic practitioner, I've studied energy medicine, and I'm also a Cherokee native American here in the US so, so indigenous culture and reconnecting with that, I think is vitally important for us.  Um, but I don't want to, uh, move past the Elohim stories because they're, they're important. I want to touch on that, um, for just a few moments and it relates to something you wrote about in your recent book, we were just talking about Jesus and, and some of the different translations you have pointed out to related to his teachings and, and something he, he said that you write about in the third book is him attempting to get his followers to understand that your way is not ultimately God, and to, to, to essentially view things differently.  And so I'd love for you to talk a bit about the powerful ones, what we know about the powerful ones, and, and then maybe how that ties to, you know, Jesus attempting to set the story straight.

Paul:  Well, Elohim, the word means “the powerful ones”. And so my early question in researching, escaping from Eden is, well, how come it's translated as God then? And what happens if we retell the elegant stories as the stories of the powerful ones? Well, of course the stories change, but they don't change in a random way. And I could see quickly that when you read the Elohim stories or stories of the powerful ones, you're reading a summary form of the Sumerian, Babylonian, Acadian, and Assyrian stories about sky people.  And it suddenly makes sense of a whole load of storylines in the Hebrew Canon, in which you have powerful ones going to war against each other and thousands of human beings being slaughtered in that conflict. So you realize that you're looking at a world with a spectrum of different kinds of powerful entities, and I stress different kinds. There is, um, a body called the sky council in the Hebrew Canon <indistinct> called an Intergalactic Federation.  He was the Brigadier general who for 27 years was the chief of space security for Israel. And he said on the basis of his work, he believed that we are currently in contact with an Intergalactic Federation. Again, implying a spectrum of entities. That story is thousands of years old. So now you reframe the stories of the old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures in a henotheistic light.

And henotheism is the idea that there are many gods, but you serve this one. And that certainly frames a lot of the storylines. So you get to the 10 Commandments and it's very clear. There are other powerful ones out there, but you are not to talk about them.

You're not to serve them. You're not to work for them. Don't even depict them.  Forget.  They're there, but serve this one, serve your one only.  So right then and there you realize yeah, where it fits into this, um, this, uh, population of powerful beings.  There’s one of them.  And it makes sense. Now, when you get to the story of Yahweh being very jealous of the powerful one of that crowd, when, uh, some of his human beings go off to consult him and he says, is there not a powerful one here? You could consult on that, you go to the path <indistinct>, and there's this peer to peer competition going on.

Suddenly it makes sense. Yeah. Well, he's one of the Elohim. And so the picture emerges of a time when human beings were governed by entities that were not human.

And each of these entities had their own colony of human beings. Now you get to Jesus. How does he relate to that?  A lot of Christians who read the Bible will have noticed, and perhaps been puzzled by the fact that Jesus does not talk about - wait, he doesn't teach people to worship. Yeah. Wait, why isn't he using that name? Why isn't he using the holy name?  So here we have a conflict all of a sudden. So there's a big question. And then why didn't he unambiguously validate the Hebrew scriptures?

Because he did - you get to Act 15 and the early church is wrestling with the question of, what do we do with the Hebrew Canon?  Do we have to believe in it? Do we have to obey it to be Christians? And the council in Act 15 is headed up by Jesus's brother, James and the apostles are present. All the senior leaders are present and they conclude no faith in the Hebrew Canon.  It’s not a prerequisite for Christianity. We've moved on. And yet somehow the early church glued the Hebrew scriptures onto the apostolic teachings to make a Bible of Old Testament and New Testament, confusing people for the next 2000 years.  But in the beginning, the church leaders were very clear. Jesus isn't building, uh, on what he started on the Hebrew Canon. He didn't endorse the Elohim stories. He didn't endorse the Yahweh stories. He didn't endorse the sixth century BCE edit that turned all that into God's story.  And without that being obvious and clear, they could not have made the decision they did. And once you fully process that, you can go back and see points where Jesus is deliberately, um, downgrading the Yahweh stories and turning people away from them.  And the most dramatic example of that is a moment where he's teaching about prayer. And Jesus says, what kind of father would give the child a stone?  If the child is hungry and thirsty, what kind of father would give them a stone? If their child asked them for fish, what kind of father would give them a snake?  Now that to a lot of readers is a bizarre thing for Jesus to say.  Why would he come up with such a perverse scenario?  Is that - the answer is, he's referring to a halfway story or two to two moments in the Yahweh story where that is exactly what we did, as hungry and thirsty human beings were suffering in the desert.  They had been on emergency rations for goodness knows how long they were having problems because of lack of access to safe drinking water.  What does Yahweh do? He gives them a stone, and Moses has to get water from the stone. When they say we can't live on this emergency ration forever.  Can we add some proper food, please?  Yahweh punishes them by sending not food, but snakes. That's what Jesus is referring to.  That's how Yahweh responds to hungry people. What kind of father does that? Jesus says you eat a lot. You know how to look after your children.  You wouldn't do that to your children. What kind of father would, in that moment? You can't equate your way with the God that Jesus was revealing and relating to.  And calling him father - there's a total separation in that moment. And when you realize Jesus has done that with the Yahweh stories, go back and look again and think again about what it means when the writers describe Yahweh’s snout and Yahweh’s skin and his legs and his tail and his flight feathers. Had you realized that some of these stories, with what we understand as the holy name of God attached to them, fit perfectly into the world's Canon of dragon narratives.  It fits with a global narrative of there being a time when we were governed by non-human entities. And that's, um, that's a real shocker because people think of Yahweh as the holy name.  And in Echoes of Eden, I show that the name itself belongs in the world's cannon of dragon narratives. The edit done in the sixth century BCE really throws us off what's happening.  And what's happening is that the Bible is full of stories about all kinds of different entities, but in that moment, the holy name of God and the word God got airbrushed over the top of all those other stories so that it might look like a seamless story of God from beginning to end. But it isn't, it's a story about a kaleidoscope of beings and you do the translation work and it becomes clear as day. 

Jenna:  And do you start to see the complexity in our human history as you uncover those different translations? And I just want to reflect for a moment on how my early issues with the Bible were around this, this image of God being so violent towards us.

You know, I think that very early on it felt just so wrong to me, just intuitively. I just knew that couldn't be right.  And, and so as this, you know, research and translation has come to light to me, it also makes a lot more sense that we're dealing with an angry ET. We're dealing with these warring factions of ETs who are just not good to humans. No, that's right. And don't have any empathy towards them.  Uh, can be very vicious and unpredictable punishing to the seventh generation, your family line, for some mistake you made.

Paul:  you're right.  We, we know it straight away instinctively. If we're honest, some things - often these stories, they are really the stories of colonization and subjugation of human beings, which makes sense when you realize that's what they are.  But if you read them as God's stories, not only does it distort our ideas of God, that we think God is like that, but if you worship a God who will do genocide, then you will justify genocide. If you worship a God who was a xenophobe, you will justify xenophobia.  If you worship a God who enslaves human beings, you will justify slavery. You have to because that's what your God has done.  And so this mistake in translation has produced injustices and violence and genocides for 2000 years now. And that's why I think it's so important that we unravel this problem, that we don't gloss over it.  And that we say those are not stories. God is not like that, so that we can free ourselves from having to justify the impossible and making monsters of ourselves.

Jenna:  Right. I agree. I think this is just hugely important work in the world today. It's what, what may save humanity.  If we can evolve our worldview and, and shift how we operate with each other, um, you know, you referenced the depiction of the powerful ones, having kind of a dragon-like body and features. And this is corroborated in other, uh, cultures and other cultural stories, like the Mesopotamian stories and even in North and South America.  And so, so I'd love for you to maybe just connect the dots on that for our audience for a moment, so that folks know this, isn't just about, what's found in the Bible. We now can go to compare and contrast around the whole world to get a very different, you know, viewpoint of what might've happened.

Paul:  That's exactly right. And for me, it was the correlations that really got my attention to find the same basic story being told from culture to culture all around the world, ancient, ancient cultures, that in the deep past had no contact with each other.  And many of the repetitions, it became clear to me that what I was finding was a visual memory being reported by different cultures.  It wasn't that a book that had gone around the world, had been retranslated, or a story had gone around the world in Chinese whispers.  Each culture had their own language and metaphor to describe what they saw.  And I began to realize they saw the same thing. So they saw powerful ones arriving on a planet that had been devastated, flooded, and had a black sky. And then those powerful ones help to rehabilitate the land and then work with the life that survived and, uh, fine tune homosapiens to where we are. That's a story that repeats and the entities, uh, referred to, I mentioned Yahweh in the Hebrew scriptures, but you go to the Mesoamerican, you've got Kukukán, Quetzacotl, or who again, have these reptilian and bird-like features that they're the feathered serpents.  And then those names are curious. <indistinct>.  Um, there are a number of others, archaic in Egypt, and they all had this sound.  So not only have we got a visual memory going around the world, we've got an auditory memory that's being recorded.  The same sound attached to these entities is remembered by cultures all around the world. And so you've got corroborations like that, that say, this is not just a metaphor.  This is not just symbolism. It is not a coincidence that all these cultures have come up with the same storyline and the same sound that they remember and the same visual scene they're describing. But I should say that not all powerful ones are reptilian or bird-like in many of the stories, the powerful ones are, look very much like us, only a bit hotter.  They are very, very attractive to people. And that's part of what draws our ancestors to them, to sit at their feet and learn from them. And the earliest stories of contact in many cultures are a beautiful people coming and working with their ancestors to nurture their civilizations, not to enslave them, not to rule over them or despoil them or exploit them, but to teach them how to live on the planet in balance with their environment, what plants are good for food, which ones are good to avoid, which should good for medicine, which are good for higher consciousness.  And so we have a spectrum of contact experiences reported by our ancestors, some very traumatizing and some very empowering, and that suggests that some of the company we enjoy today is equally supportive and empowering of our progress as human beings.  

Jenna:  I'm so glad you touched on that. That was something I was going to bring up and ask you, because I think that's an important thing for us all to sit with as we understand maybe the more negative side of our human history - that we live in a universe that is programmed for duality.  That's my understanding. So there's good and bad, right? And all, all civilizations, all beings out there. And, at Star Family Wisdom, we are experiencers of ET contact. So that's how my world view changed from formerly atheist to now deeply spiritual and similar to what you described, feeling this connection, you know, with all of life and the universe in a way that I never understood was possible.

And I know that there are benevolent, very friendly ET beings who want to support us and want this evolution in our consciousness to occur, um, for many of the reasons, you know, you've, you've stated, and you know, I, I'm reflecting a bit on what you talked about around the, the learning and how humans have learned, you know, from ET beings.  And we hear in many cultures around the world that there were culture bringers that helped establish civilization. And I'd love to hear from you, you know, maybe just some highlights of what you've learned from the indigenous cultures you've spent time with, you've studied with and, you know, sat with many elders around the world. You you've studied shamanic culture.  And, um, you know, I'd love to hear maybe any wisdom, you know, that has been passed on to you, um, that may have come, you know, from these ET beings.  What have you learned from our indigenous cultures?

Paul:  Well, the thing that I think has affected me the most from my contact with guardians and elders of indigenous traditions has been to do with what contact means and what it might look like.  And I've been very blessed with input from a particular friend, who's a guardian of the Navajo tradition. And so he is a shamanic healer like yourself, Jenna.  And he talked me through what the modalities are that he uses and what, what his framework is for understanding them.  And as he described that, I realized this is the same. This is the same approach as I would find among the traditional healers of West Africa and Southern Africa.  And in those settings, healing is a contact modality. And so my friend - in Echoes of Eden, I call him Troy, not his real name - he talks about how, when a person arrives for healing, he expects them to arrive with an invisible support cloud of entities who were there to support that person's progress through life and their healing journey.  And his job as a shamanic healer is to tune into the conversation that's going on between the, the client's entities and their own entities, tune into the information that's flowing between them so that the healer can work out, oh, this is where the problem has come from.  This is how we put the person back into a healthy balance. And as he described that, not only could I join the dots with practice in Aboriginal Australia, Southern Africa, as I just said, but I realized that I could understand my own experiences of healing in the Christian world in a very similar way.

So I'll give a for instance, uh, right at the beginning of my ministry, I was working in London and a lady came for healing one day because we offered prayer for healing and our church.  And she had terrible mobility problems and back pain that she'd been afflicted with for about 20 years. She walked with crutches and she came in the prayer for healing for her back and from out of the blue, my pastor, Erwin, my senior said, tell us about your dad.  I thought, oh, well, that's a left field question. I wonder why he asked that. And it became very obvious that she hated her dad. Her dad had not, um, abused her physically, or maybe even deliberately psychologically, but her dad had such major issues that it was easy to see why she was so hurt and resentful, having been brought up by him. And as she talked about him, she became even more scrunched up than she was before.  Um, pastor Erwin said, do you think you're ready to let go of your resentment and anger that you quite rightly feel towards your dad for what he did because it's not doing you any good.  It's actually hurting you. Do you feel you can let it go? And, and as best you can forgive him and say, I'm just leaving that in the past. I don't want to be attached to any of that stuff anymore. It was horrible. I'm going to move on and live my life.  And she said, yes, I think I am. And so pastor Erwin said, I want you to verbalize that in some way, and then we'll pray for you.  And so she spoke as if her father was there and just said, look, I'm letting all that go. Uh, I don't expect anything of you moving forward.  Whether we have a relationship, if it’s a good one or a bad one. It doesn't matter. I'm just putting it all in the past.  That is not going to be my life moving forward. And having said this, I could sense she was breathing more deeply.  She was sitting further back in her seat. And then she went very quiet. And then she bent down to pick up her crutches to go.  And I said, oh, but we haven't prayed for your back yet. And it was at that point, she said, oh my goodness, I'm completely healed.  And so clearly what had happened was it was the trapped emotion in her body that was hurting her. And once she was able to let it go - and I just take my hat off to her that she could, in that moment take that opportunity -  all that emotion has released very quietly. And there was the healing. So this blew my mind. And I asked pastor Erwin afterwards, what made you think to ask that question?  And he said, well, I don't know. It just shot up in prayer. Um, this lady looks so out of balance, how do we get her back in balance? And the thought came into my mind, ask her about her dad. The thought came into my mind, is what he said - he was guided.  Yeah. So it, at the time I had this worldview that said, oh, okay, God, by the holy spirit gave the word of knowledge to a Christian minister. It was a very buttoned up view. That's fine. It, it explains what happened. But if I shared that story with my friend, Troy, or with a Nyanga and a Sangoma from Southern Africa, they would have listened to that story and said, ah, the ancestors.  And they would have said that voice was one of the ancestors speaking the word into pastor Erwin's mind. And it was because of this conversation between her spirits and your spirits. And so now I realized that the phenomena I've experienced through decades, fit into the pattern of shamanic healing, which is built on the worldview that every person has an invisible support team and that the support team can whisper things to you that support you in your journey. That's contact, that's contact just as much as if I see a UFO, it lands and a being comes out of it and speaks to me.  That's more dramatic. It's more filmic, but our ancestor to say, oh, no contact happens all the time. And it can happen very quietly and, and dramatically.  And it's there in the new Testament. If you go to one John four, the writer fully expects the early Christians to be having these experiences of spirits, giving them information, being in communication with them. And the writer of one, John, never defines what those spirits are. Doesn't say if they're physical or nonphysical, because the spirit can be physical and ancient language. It doesn't say if it's ancestral spirits into dimensional spirits, ETs who communicate telepathically, if it's aspects of your higher self, he doesn't say because apparently that's not what's important. What he says is important is you make up your own mind. You keep your sovereignty, keep your autonomy.  And if you're willing to weigh and filter what comes, you will be getting some good information. And if I can just give a personal -  I don't want to give too long an answer, but I want to give a personal example of this.  I was standing at the sink the other day, doing some washing up and I was in a bad mood. I was feeling upset and angry about the way a certain health emergency had been managed in my part of the world and the implications for my family and the health of my family.  And I was just sort of brooding over this while I was washing up and from out of the blue, the thought came into my mind from somewhere, but said, Paul, would it help if you saw it this way? And I had to stop washing up and think about it and reflect on the story that had come into my mind.  And I said out loud, do you know, actually, yes, it would be helpful. That actually does help me. It helps me to accept what's happened.  Now I know that wasn't my thought because it not only cut across my thoughts, it cut across my opinion. This was not my thought.  It was something for me to consider. Now I have no idea where that thought came from. If it was my higher self, it was an interdimensional being, if it was my deceased grandma whispering something in Ida, I have no idea.  It doesn't matter. What's important is I thought about it and realized, yes, that is helpful. And it helped me. 

Jenna: I'm smiling so big right now because that's what happened to me, Paul, that was my very first contact experience was stewing on something ruminating, not being as kind and forgiving as I could be. And a thought a message cut me off, just cut off my train of thought and delivered what was a very helpful message that helped me reframe how I was feeling and how I was, you know, acting towards this other person. And fast forward, you know, a few years I found out that some of those messages that then started to come more frequently were a combination, you know, of my non-physical team, but also interdimensional beings that I have a connection with. And maybe this is a good way to segue into your ET contact stories, because you've learned through this journey about some of your own experiences beyond just that. So in your third book, you actually open, um, the book with a quick synopsis of a regression that you did with Barbara Lamb, who is a very, uh, well-known ET regressionist.  And what did you learn in that process and how have you come to understand your own contact experiences? Sure. Well, I had a number of experiences when I was 20 years old that I always puzzled over and I knew I didn't have a handle on them. I didn't understand what had happened. And I had tried to explain them with the boxes I had in my theological worldview at that time. So I had these experiences and to my mind, they either had to be experiences of God or the devil angels or demons or human animal, vegetable, mineral. I had no other boxes for the universe to fit into if you can imagine that. And, um, but I knew it didn't quite fit. So I had a scary experience of five entities showing up in my apartment, just outside Bath. And I didn't know what I was looking at. I could see clearly enough to see that there were five of them. I could see clearly enough to see they were about the size of a year six.  Uh, but they were somehow translucent. Um, I knew they weren't human and I was scared. And then I don't remember what happened next.  So one of the reasons I did the regression, because I was curious as to what happened next, uh, in my memory, I just fell asleep, but that's not really very likely when you're as terrified as I was in that moment.  So at the time I thought, well, it was scary. So it must be a demonic experience, but the more I started my theology, the more I realized, no, that is not the demon story that emerges in early scriptures.  That's not how they manifest. And in 33 years of ministry, I've learned how they manifest. Those were not demons. They were something else.  And it's only, now that I've done my research and paleo contact that I look back on that experience and say, I think I know exactly what that was. That was a close encounter of the fourth kind. Uh, those were probably small grays, but I'd never heard of a small gray when I was 20 years old. I don't think I knew what a close encounter the first kind was, but looking back, I realized that's what that was.  And then there was another close encounter. The fourth kind this time with the, um, with the beautiful people. I encountered them in a shop,  Holland and Barrett, in Chichester, in the UK.  And I was so affected by the presence of these two incredibly beautiful human beings where the, with a total human being as well.  And I didn't understand why their presence was affecting me in this way. And then I didn't understand their behavior because there seemed to be some kind of a telepathic communication going on between them.  I won't tell the whole story because you could read it in the Scars of Eden and I didn't understand it.  And it seemed like a story of nothing. How do you share that story with your friends and family, without them saying, you just saw some people are very attractive.  So what, but I knew it was more than that. And so again, decades later, I realized people have been having these experiences all around the world for thousands of years, where they encounter beings that look human and look really attractive, but that actually it’s something else, they're from somewhere else, they're visitors from the Pleiades, or they’re Nordic visitors, to use our modern language. Again, I had none of that language when I was 20 years old, had no labels, no boxes. I just knew something very, very strange. It was happening right in front of me. And the reason I tell my stories in the books is precisely because they're not dramatic stories. Uh, they are not crystal clear. I saw a UFO, I saw a small gray, it looked this, this is what happened.  And the reason I tell my contact stories is because I think most people's experiences of contact are similar. That like me, they'll remember the first couple of minutes of an experience.  And then they don't know what happened next or something happened that they just can't explain and can hardly  describe. And I think it will give one another permission to share stories like that.  That's when the picture begins to fill out. I don't think there would be a friendship circle or a family circle anywhere that wouldn't have some anomalous story like that.  And if you can give permission to your friendship circle to say, have you ever experienced something you couldn't explain? I reckon every individual would have a story.  And the picture that would emerge from pooling those stories is, we're not alone. And so I share my stories for that reason.  And you went through with a regression to access some of those memories that were suppressed because when we have these anomalous experiences, or at least at the beginning, when it's so far outside of our world, who you, our mind, our subconscious will suppress that to help us because we don't know what to do with that.

Jenna:  So, um, so I'm, I'm curious, you know, what was the turning point for you that made you say I need a regression?

Paul:  Well, the thing I really wanted to do a regression for was not the two encounters that I just mentioned, but realizing that once or twice in that same year, I experienced lost time.  And again, I had no language for that when it happened, I didn't know how to understand the experiences. Now I look back and realize I lost some time.  Things happened during that time that were evidenced in some other way, which I won't go into. So I want to know what happened in that lost time.  So that's why I thought, all right, I'll, I'll go with Barbara Lamb, ‘cause I've seen her do regressions with other people. And I love her approach. It's so transparent. It's so simple. I'll give it a go. But what emerged from the regression was less about the details of those experiences and the details of the contact experiences.  What emerged from the regression was what impact it made on my life and to the course of my life. And I now realize that it was kind of pivotal for me in a way that I missed at the time, but it turned me into somebody who will recognize an anomaly for what it is and not believe I've explained it away, who will recognize something in an ancient text, including the Bible that has not been explained. And that needs looking into.  It made me spot people who had experiences that didn't fit into the grid of our theology.  And instead of pretending it fit, I would call it out and say, we need to think about that. We don't understand that.  And it made me a person who would always look for the hidden layers of a story. And I couldn't do couldn't have done any of my work as a church doctor without being a person like that, who would listen to the stories, and then ask what has not been said, who would look at what's happened and say, what has not been revealed?  It totally altered my approach to ministry through all the 33 years I was in church based ministry. And it's only now I realize it did that. And that's how important it was to my being. It's no coincidence. 

Jenna:  It seems like that you're here today, doing what you're doing, you know, being a contactee, being a person who's has had these anomalous experiences, being a person like you said, who has had that level of study and curiosity.  And I just so appreciate you being willing to change your mind when presented with new information. I think that's so important for all of us to stay in that curious open place, because there's a lot more about our universe that we're uncovering every day and learning about.

Paul:  Yeah, absolutely. I think curiosity is one of the most vital things that we have as human beings. I think curiosity is what's driven maybe all of human progress that we want to learn, that we want to investigate, that we can imagine a world different to the one we're in.  And so if I can spark people's curiosity, I think that's one of the most wonderful things possible. 

Jenna:  What would you say is, I guess at stake for us as we move through this unlearning and relearning process, you know, what are we, what are we letting go of, you know, to go back to the shamonic energy medicine practice, let's, let's do that with the audience.  You know, what do we need to let go of? And, and what's ahead, you know, what, what can we be really hopeful and excited about as we go through this relearning process?

Paul:  Well, we touched on the psychological benefit of, of doing this reframing work, because if you live in a universe where you have to tiptoe around a potentially very violent God who will smite you if you get it wrong. That absolutely eviscerates our, our self-esteem and our self-confidence and the confidence we bring to our lives. So to escape from that and begin to recover your esteem and your respect and love for all humanity. I mean, that's, that is absolutely fundamental to be able to do anything. So I think there's that I think we live in a world where the powers and brilliance of human beings is suppressed, by the way we're governed. Most governments are interested in having populations that are governable. I mean, I mean, that's just like saying a classroom teacher wants to be in control of the classroom. So it's only stating the obvious, but at the level of society, it can be very diminishing and demeaning and human beings are far more wonderful than compliant social units. We're incredible beings. Many of our ancestral narratives say that when those ETs came and genetically engineered our ancestors, they came and did that.  And they were surprised by how conscious and intelligent the homosapiens turned out as suddenly they were thinking, how do we work with this?  We are brilliant. We are so special that we have visitors from other parts of the cosmos studying us. That's part of the contact experience. And then there are hybridization narratives all around the world that go back tens of thousands of years, because some of our neighbors want what we have in their gene pool. And I think in us, there's a unique blend of earthling heritage and ET advantage of mammal heritage and ET tweaking, that means we have a unique capacity for love, compassion, creativity. I think we enjoy our lives in a way that some of our cosmic cousins don't and all that makes us special.  I think when you listen to the teaching and the greats through the ages, like Jesus, like Lao Tzu, they issue these invitations to explore what's possible.  That suggests we can have a far more conscious, intelligent, and elevated experience as human beings. And so I want to know what that is, what would it be?

What would it be like for all of us to live on this planet in a more conscious, intelligent way? What would that look and feel like?  And so it's, it's the appetite for that journey of exploration that I really want to excite in the Eden series.

Jenna:  I love that. And that certainly excited me, you know, as I read your books and, and was just remembering how, how much more we can be. And, and you even articulate in the books that it appears there wasn't even an attempt by the powerful ones, the negative powerful ones to inhibit our consciousness abilities, to inhibit our, you know, extra sensory perception to make us maybe less intelligent.  And we have, we have this ability to maybe reactivate dormant DNA that we haven't been using. So that's your understanding as well?

Paul:  Absolutely. That's absolutely correct. And it is the explanation of who we are. That's given by many ancient cultures around the world. If you think of the story in Genesis three, which is told as the story of the fall in Augustinians, Calvinist Christianity, you read that story again.  You realize it's a tussle between two beings over how intelligent the human beings should be. You go to Genesis 11 and you can see that there's a technological species that has got too technological.  And so it's bombed back into a pre stone age condition.  Go to the story of Zeus and Prometheus, and Zeus gets angry because Prometheus made the human beings too technological.  And so they have to be taken down a peg, to go to Mesoamerica. And there's a very detailed explanation of a downgrade of our higher powers.  I love how detailed it gets. It says that the chief genetic engineer came up with homosapiens, sapiens. So that's us plus some higher cognitive abilities. And suddenly they've got a kind of human being that has better telepathic connection that we do, better remote viewing that we have, but a future viewing that we have, and they found they couldn't work with that.  All they wanted was a species intelligent enough to be their working class. Well, how do you manipulate or exploit or herd a species that knows what you're thinking?  So they have, they have an emergency meeting and they say, how can we downgrade these humans so they're just bright enough to work for us.  And Kukumats comes up with a vapor that when sprayed over human populations will damage the health of the humans in such a way that it shuts off their access to their higher powers.  And it says specifically, how it talks about the vision of the human beings being impaired, brought down to the point where they can only see what's immediately around them.  Now that might be totemic for all of the human senses that we only know what's in our immediate environment. And for any other information, we have to rely on an authority to tell us what's what, and they found that useful.  They could work with that. 

Jenna:  So just thinking through the implications of that, this vapor, that limits our vision to this, what we're familiar with, how is our vision limited?

Paul:  Exactly. Well, it's limited by surfaces. We can't see into things. We can't see behind things. It's limited by space. We can't see further than the horizon.  We can't see into deep space. It's limited by time, we can only see the present. We can't see the past.

We can't see the future.  It’s limited by frequency. We can only see this range of colors or radio lengths. Some animals can see this.  Some animals can see this. Your pet can see things you can't see. So what happens if we take all those limits off, you'll suddenly start seeing what the other animals see.  You will suddenly be able to see much further. We call that remote viewing. You'll be able to see beyond this local time, that's called past viewing, future viewing, pre-cognition.  You can see into things, that's called x-ray vision. And suddenly you realize that we're capable of so much more, absent of this vapor being sprayed over us in the <indistinct> story.  It echoes a story from out of Nigeria, in which the engineers Abassi and Ati released devices into the environment to make the humans mentally ill and physically ill so they can manage them. So they're quite negative stories, but there's a positive take home.  The positive take home is that when they want to downgrade the human beings, they don't alter the DNA. Again, they leave all the DNA there and they release something into the environment. And what that hits at is that we still have these abilities, but they're in the off position. That's confirmed by contemporary science.  This is real science by real peer reviewed neuroscientists who study a thing called acquired savant syndrome. That's a syndrome where high cognitive abilities are knocked on by accident.  So a brain injury, a central nervous system event, a stroke, people will emerge from these injuries. Suddenly they could speak a language they couldn’t speak before, play a musical instrument they couldn't play before. They're brilliant at mathematics or advanced physics. And these scientists asked what are higher cognitive abilities doing in our brain, in the off position. That doesn't make sense. And is there a way of switching them on without a brain injury and our mystical and Germanic traditions have always said, yes, yes. We can switch them on. Yes. We all have those abilities. Yes. For the most part, they're in the opposition. Our ancestral taught stories will tell you why.  And here are our protocols for accessing future viewing, remote viewing self-healing telepathic connection. And you realize these things all belong together.  They're all inter-woven accessing higher powers, stories of paleo contact, a different story of human origins in ancestral narratives. They all belong together. And the take home is that we can re-empower ourselves and operate at a higher level. 

Jenna:  I think that is so profound for the audience to hear.  We, we've talked about DNA before. We've talked about dormant DNA with Geraldine Orozco, who is -

Paul: Oh, yes. I love Geraldine. 

Jenna:  Yeah. We interviewed her a few weeks ago and, uh, had a great conversation about how we can, like you said, become more empowered and take control of our environment, our mindset, our healing, to do that DNA activation. I mean, scientists talk about junk DNA and some have said, well, it's just, it's just random stuff. And then others have said, no, that's actually the DNA of other life forms.  So it's, it it's inactive because it doesn't relate to us. But then our ancestors say, no, some of that DNA is ours, but it's inactive and we need to, re-engage it,  activate it.  

Paul:  And that's what the semantic protocols are about, exactly. 

Jenna:  You know, I've made my life a, an experiment in that over the last few years. And then I can tell the audience that as I've engaged in that healing work, engaged in the energy medicine work, absolutely those extra sensory, you know, abilities do start to expand, um, at, usually at a rate you can handle.  And I just did an experiment that I will follow up with you and tell you the results of Paul. So now that I know about energy medicine and how we store the imprints of trauma in our energy field, that also affects the, um, the expression of our DNA.  And so we need to clear that trauma, right? To, to have a very clear energy field to upgrade our blueprint.  And so after having learned about this inhibitor, right, that essentially was placed on us and, and the trauma, the right that we've been carrying through all of these generations, I've been doing energy clearings on myself related to that specific trauma of the powerful ones, putting the inhibitors in place.  So I'm excited. I just started it this week. So I'm excited to see, you know, kind of what that new level of energy clearing does for me, and I'll report back.

Paul:  Oh, that's wonderful. And I fully agree with what you're saying, Jenna, there, that I believe our ancestors have carried trauma for generations from the period when we were governed by violent non-compassionate beings.  I think that is, uh, has had a profound effect on us. And I was introduced to the idea that trauma could be carried through the generations, uh, through, uh, an alteration in how our DNA functions by a visit to the pharmacy a couple of years ago.  And the guy who was dispensing the medications for me on that day was very, very slim. And so I said, um, can I just ask you, you’re wonderfully slim, what's your secret?  Because at my time of life, that was an interest of mine, if you know what I mean. And he said, oh, I'll tell you the story.

He said, traditionally, my family was not slim. We were, you know, heavy, full bodied people until my great-grandfather was in Auschwitz.  And when he came out, ‘cause he survived it, he was rake thin. And then he had children who were rake thin and they had children who were rake thin.  Then they had children who were rake thin. And so in that death camp, his great grandfather's body had to learn how to live rake thin. And it passed that lesson on to its progeny and to all his descendants that bodies will be rake thin because a trauma had affected a patriarch of that family line.  And my pharmacist friend doesn't need to live rake thin, but his body thinks it does. And so I'd be very interested to see how that could be healed.  I mean, he doesn't have problems necessarily being that thin, but the reason for it is trauma. 

Jenna:  Right. And how would it be if there was a healing of the family field, how would that manifest in the DNA history of that family moving forward?  Would they be able to carry weight in the future if there was a profound healing? 

Paul:  Yeah, probably properly. You know, I, I've seen so many profound healings in this work and through lots of other modalities as well, but you know, it's not always guaranteed, but that sort of stuff does happen.  So, you know, I think this is an invitation to anyone out there watching who, you know, may have their own personal trauma from this lifetime, but also be carrying, you know, all of that trauma we've experienced over the last 2000 years engage, you know, and healing modalities of, of any kind, you know, because they all are effective in their own way.  And like you said, the body carries that trauma. Yeah. I think, I mean, my belief is it can turn the other way and that just because your family line has, oh, we've always been this or this has always happened to the males in my family, I believe we can change those stories because my pharmacist's family story was changed by something external. It changed the DNA story.  And I think we can flip it the other way. We can break the pattern. There can be healing and we can have a better way forward.  And I think the secrets of that really are embedded deep in the ancestral stories of our indigenous peoples. 

Jenna:  I, I believe so too.  That's one of, one of my absolute passions is, um, integrating as much of that wisdom as I can and bringing it to our audience and community.  And, um, maybe this is a good moment to wrap up with talking about your third book where, uh, you do go a bit deeper on some of those ancestral narratives, you interview and talk with so many people that you reference in the book. So I'd love to give you an opportunity to, to highlight that book and what you're excited about as it's releasing and, um, tell the audience when it's releasing and when they can find it.

Paul:  Sure. Well, I was really excited to get into Echoes of Eden because after escaping from Eden and The Scars of Eden, I had learned that stories of paleo contact and human potential are absolutely interwoven in the world, and in traditional indigenous narratives.  So to unpack the question of how can we have a better human experience? I knew where I had to go. I had to sit at the feet of the guardians and elders of indigenous traditions and tap their wisdom - wisdom that's been passed on through the generations, through initiation ceremony and those of us who live in cultures that don't have it, I think, feel really impoverished for the lack of it. As I started studying it, I realized that governments around the world for centuries have tried to stop initiation practices because they don't want an empowered population. As we said earlier, they want a compliant governable population. And so I joined the dots through the centuries of attempts to silence the indigenous story.  Not because it's an argument over what fiction should be in the libraries. The issue is really, how empowered should human beings be.  It's quite clear that the information carried by the initiation traditions is threatening to the powers that govern. It has alternative information and alternative sources of power.  And so it's a bit of a smoking gun, when you see how concerted the effort has been to shut down indigenous information.  So I give various examples of that. I talk about the Cathars, for instance, in France, in the 1200’s, uh, historians reckon up to a million French people living in “the long dark” were exterminated by 19 successive Popes because they were showing Europe what happens when you apply the wisdom of the ages, the St. Jude information and they've generated a better society. So when I was talking before about, how might life look if we live more consciously, more intelligently - the Cathars were a case study. They showed it was real and not theory only. Or you look at the history of the indigenous peoples of the USA, Canada, Australia, the same 100 year period, 1880 to 1980, the governments of those three countries try to stop and illegalize initiation ceremonies.  All three places operated a stolen generation policy to take children away from their first nation families so that they wouldn't be trained in their traditional ways.  They wouldn't have their traditional abilities and they could discontinue the indigenous culture altogether. The truth and reconciliation process in Canada has said very plainly, this was an attempt at cultural genocide. So it's another smoking gun, literally thousands of 10,000 children murdered in the boarding schools of Canada.  Not, not any old children, no, just the children of first nation families, because they're trying to discontinue the tradition. So that first nation Canadians won't know what the ancestors knew, and won't be able to do what the ancestors could do yet.  There's this, this dark thread through history of all the suppression and violence. But again, the flipside is this information never goes away and always resurfaces.  It always survives. It's always rediscovered. And in Echoes of Eden, I trace that journey saying, you can find this information.  You can find it here, here, and here it resurfaces here, it resurfaces here. It's put into practice here. And it's still just as empowering as it was thousands of years ago when this information was first laid down.  And so Echoes of Eden is about that kind of a journey, enabling the reader to sit with the people I've sat with, and learn the things I've learned.  And there are things you can begin applying in your own life to reactivate a more conscious way of life.

Jenna:  uh, where you can find Echoes of Eden?

Paul: Well, you can go to Amazon, Kendall Barnes and noble high book depository, wherever books are sold. And you'll find Escaping from Eden, The Scars of Eden, Echoes of Eden.   And if you want to get into conversation with me about what you find in those books, you can do that on The Fifth Kind TV, on YouTube or the Paul Wallis channel on YouTube.  I'm always in the comments every day, having conversations with people. And if you want to take it further and do some coaching with me, come to paulanthonywallis.com, Anthony with an H, Wallis W A L L I S, paulanthonywallace.com.  And I can get into conversation with you from there. 

Jenna:  Beautiful. Thank you so much, Paul. This has been just a fabulous conversation.  It has filled me up in many ways. I love talking about these topics and helping people process and, and heal, you know, through these conversations. ‘Cause that's the work we're doing here is healing, you know, from, from all of that misinterpretation. And like you said, those, those darker threads that have, that have been consistent throughout history, but your work is giving us a new foundation to stand on and I'm just so appreciative and grateful for your leadership in the field.

Paul:  Oh, thank you, Jenna. Thanks so much for having me on today. I've really enjoyed the conversation. 

Jenna: It was wonderful. Thank you, Paul.  And for the audience, definitely check out Paul's work. There's links to his website, his YouTube channels, his books in the show notes - read all of them.  That's your homework. They are incredible. You'll learn a lot. And Paul we'll have to chat again. This has been just so great.  And there's so much more to talk about. I have about a million questions on these topics, but we're out of time.  So we'll have to wrap up for today. 

Paul:  Thanks, Jenna. I'll look forward to next time. 

Jenna:  Yeah. Thanks Paul. Thanks everyone.  Don't forget to like, subscribe, leave a comment. Let us know what you thought about the conversation and uh, what questions you have that we can continue to answer in future episodes. We'll see you next time. Bye for now.